Dale Johnson: This week on the podcast, I have with me two friends, and I’m looking forward to our time together. Dr. Sam Stephens is here with us. He’s an Assistant Professor of Biblical Counseling at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, and his full-time job is with ACBC, where he serves as Director of Membership and Certification.
I also have with me Emily Stahly, who’s an ACBC Certified Counselor. She’s pursuing her Master of Arts in Biblical Counseling at Midwestern, and she’s the author of an ACBC booklet on the Duluth Model. She’s married to Alec, and they have two girls, Dottie and Jemma. Guys, welcome to the podcast.
Sam Stephens: Thanks for having us.
Emily Stahly: Thanks.
Dale Johnson: Now, if you remember, Sam, I think you were a part of this, we talked about the book, Bad Therapy, Abigail Schreier’s book, and in there, she talks about several different issues. One of those, social-emotional learning, trauma, and she also talks about gentle parenting. We said that we were going to circle back. So, this is our circling back, where we want to make sure that we’re coming back to describe some of the ideas and practices that we see are being implemented within the church that might not be the most helpful, and many of them have similar foundations.
So, before I get too far into it, I just want to raise a question, if I can. The title of today’s podcast, “What is Gentle Parenting?” So, let’s give some definitions about what we’re talking about, and then we’ll get into some of the concerns. So, I’ll just throw that open to either of you. When we talk about gentle parenting, what’s being described here?
Sam Stephens: Well, we were just chatting about this before we came online. Essentially, we need to think about it as a broader movement. It’s definitely become more popularized lately, but it’s been around for a little bit now, a few years in its current form. But, as we all know, there is nothing new under the sun. And essentially, it’s a parenting philosophy.
How do parents seek to parent their children, to lead them, to help them grow and develop? So, it’s got a worldview attached to it. It’s got strategies attached to it. We thought the best way to define it would be through some core commitments, because we were chatting about this too. There’s not necessarily one monolithic paradigm. It’s generally going to be a broader movement, but there are going to be some core commitments about the role of parents, the nature of children, what actually are the aims of parenting. I mean, all those are going to be fleshed out.
One thing that I think is a good starting point for us to talk about would be how they actually view children. And it’s going to be very foreign to the way the Bible speaks about people, not just children, but all people, and that is as living souls that are members of one of two kingdoms, the kingdom of God or the kingdom of Satan. And that’s not the way, obviously, the way gentle parenting views children.
They view children as innately good, and any behaviors or attitudes or things that are seen as negative are going to be the result of either a lack of development. Emily can bring up some of the other examples that are going about, but it’s not because it’s a spiritual being that is corrupted by sin. Those are not the reasons. These are maladaptive, maybe inconvenient behaviors, but not things that are sinful.
You’re going to notice in a lot of things that we talk about, listener, it’s going to be a devoid of moral language or moral framework because that’s where it’s coming from. It’s not coming from right and wrong as the Bible talks about it, godliness, righteousness, and sinfulness. It’s going to be talked about in a more therapeutic fashion. So, Emily, anything come to mind in particular things that we’re looking at?
Emily Stahly: Absolutely. So, the emphasis is that children are essentially good inside, and they’re influenced by their environment and the things that are going on around them, but there’s also a really heavy emphasis on their physical development and the nervous system that these things are really important to develop and to respect.
So, we have a booklet on gentle parenting by Kelly Dion. She does a wonderful job of getting into the details from the founder, Sarah Aquil Smith, but it’s really developed from there, and I think even gone even further than some of the original writings that she had about fifteen years ago. But what she says, Sarah Aquil Smith, is that it’s mindful of current science and child psychology or remaining respectable of cultural and historical practices of child rearing.
But, really the direction we’ve seen it develop, and this is why it’s kind of hard to define, is because people kind of insert their own definitions of it, is that what’s coming to the forefront is this idea of development and their physical development, their brains. They use a lot of language like the hardwire of their brains and their nervous system dysregulation. And so, what comes along with that is not necessarily a correction of immoral or sinful behavior, but more of a containment of bad behaviors or behaviors you don’t like.
Sam Stephens: Not socially acceptable behaviors. I mean, those are all the standard for what is acceptable is very fluid.
Emily Stahly: Right. It’s going to be more socially based and more socially acceptable.
Dale Johnson: Because that’s what’s seen as healthy for your child, right? Let me enter into it like this, because I want you to keep going with some of the foundational parts of the ideas behind gentle parenting.
And so, just to clarify, gentle parenting is an approach to parenting, okay? So, as we think about an approach to parenting, let me reach back and think about The Strong-Willed Child, okay? Many of us were born in an era where that book by James Dobson was prevalent, and it was a parenting approach. And while Dobson tried to lean into some of the teachings in terms of discipline from the Scripture, there was also a heavy influence of behaviorism that was involved. So, if we’re assessing something like The Strong-Willed Child and that approach to parenting, we’re going to have to take a step back and look at what are some of the foundational ideas that build this approach to parenting?
Some we would say, well, that sounds semi-biblical, and others we would say, you know, that doesn’t address the issue of the heart, so it raises concern. In a similar way, I think it’s important that we look at something like gentle parenting and say, okay, here’s the parenting approach. What are some of the ideas behind it? So, you mentioned the concept of development, you mentioned the concept of the brain. Let’s dive into some of those things that would be considered foundational in how we see a child that leads us to parent in the way that gentle parenting is asking us to.
Emily Stahly: Yeah. So, one thing I see often is the emphasis on the brain hasn’t fully developed yet. And that means that children can’t really understand right from wrong in, you know, especially the toddler years. And so, that’s where you’re training and instructing them, but you’re not giving them discipline or punishment because they have sinned against their sibling or their defiance against you is not a sinful behavior. It’s them having a lack of control because their brain doesn’t have the hard wire to have self-control. And so, then you are trying to give them strategies, you’re coaching them in a way to handle their emotions and to deal with their emotions in a more constructive way.
But there’s no dealing with the moral side of things. It’s simply a phrase you’ll see often is, hey, it’s okay to be angry, but you can’t throw this toy at your sibling. You can’t hit your sibling. You can’t destroy your toys or things like that. You can do something else to express your anger. Or it’s okay to be frustrated. There’s that affirmation of…
Sam Stephens: We can validate the emotion to a certain extent.
Emily Stahly: It’s a validation of the emotion because the point of all of this is to help them feel secure in their attachment because attachment theory is a very big part of gentle parenting. You want to validate them so they feel secure in their attachment to you, but then also that their nervous system feels safe. They don’t feel dysregulated or unsafe because then they really can’t think straight.
Dale Johnson: All right, so where does that language come from? Because, you mentioned the concept of attachment, which I think is a very important philosophical construct that is foundational to this approach to parenting. And then you talked about the concept of the brain. Well, so I’m not denying, right, that biologically we develop, and our brains are in a process of growing and maturing, biologically speaking.
But there are some ideas that use scientific language that are behind this language of dysregulated and so on. So, give us what some of those things are sort of mixed in the pot, the recipe, if you will, with attachment.
Emily Stahly: You won’t hear this term very often maybe, but polyvagal theory is at the core of gentle parenting. We have a booklet also on that called The “Dysregulated” Nervous System by Kyle Gangle, and it’s phenomenal laying this out. And once you see it, you’re going to start connecting a lot of pieces of parenting, but also current therapy and different therapeutic approaches for even adults.
So, this idea of like there’s different nervous system or different brain states, and so the dysregulated one, you’re not thinking, you can’t control yourself. So, you have to get into like that safe zone to be able to process your emotions, to have control over what you’re doing, what you’re saying, that sort of thing. So that goal is to help your child develop in that brain state so that they have that more self-control.
Sam Stephens: And all that’s grounded in evolutionary theory, right? The primal brain and all that language that you see.
Emily Stahly: That’s really important to emphasize, is like this is not a view that is one: scientific. It’s a pretty baseless theory, but then also it’s not compatible with what the Bible tells us about who we are as humans. We’re not just the primal brain that has evolved over millions of years—we are moral beings at the core. And so, this is a way to circumvent that and have an explanation for why kids act the way they do, apart from having a sinful heart.
Dale Johnson: And I recognize and appreciate that, okay, people are saying there’s an issue with a child and we need to help them to grow and develop. Just the way that we would say biblically that you help a child to grow and develop would be radically different. And our aims would be radically different because of that, this moral basis and the way in which the Bible says that they’re born. And what God calls us to as parents in how we’re called to engage our child and what the aim really is. So even after us describing sort of the philosophical underpinnings, and there are others, but this is some of the language that you need to know when it’s used, this is what it’s rooted in.
It’s rooted in concepts of polyvagal theory. It’s rooted in concepts of attachment that are really important. Now, as we think about this philosophy, you might hear that and you’re like, man, what in the world would any Christian ever think this is a good idea? Why would we ever approach something like this and want to try and imbibe these concepts? Well, I think this is a common sort of feat, is we take error, like concepts of attachment and polyvagal, and we try to now utilize more favorable language – gentle parenting, right?
And so, this has a goal where it’s a response in many ways to something like the strong-willed child, the behaviorism, right? It’s very much a reaction to something like that. Gentle sounds nice. So, what is the way in which so many Christians are looking at this and saying, man, this is enticing to me. I think this might be a good thing. What do you think gives rise to something like that?
Emily Stahly: I think you nail it on the head where it’s really a reaction to the way that the current generation of parents, millennials, maybe even like some Gen X generation was parented by things like Strong-Willed Child, or even going further than that, like the Pearls and even more extreme expression of a very authoritarian parenting in a sense. What I’ve observed, especially just on social media as kind of just what’s the pulse among current parents right now, is that there’s a lot of resentment and bitterness to how they were raised in a harsh way. So, I think there’s a desire for gentleness. And a lot of times Christian gentle parenting advocates will be like, oh, you know, gentleness is a fruit of the spirit.
I think that’s important. We are called to parent with gentleness, but they’re going about it in like a completely wrong way because you don’t manufacture gentleness out of the flesh and out of worldly means. It has to come from the spirit and through actual sanctification. Whereas they’re going about it in a way of accepting a therapeutic view of, well, I’m essentially good inside, but I was wronged in how I was parented. And, you know, in some cases, I think children who are parents now were sinned against by their parents and how they were disciplined and punished.
But they’ve gone the complete opposite end of the spectrum and they’ve rejected what God’s words say rather than seeing that how their parents maybe parented them wasn’t correct. And so, they’re trying to seek after gentleness really by coping mechanisms from breathing techniques to supplements to these strategies to all of these different things to kind of contain the sinful heart because they don’t really want to wrestle with their current problems as, you know, millennials are a very therapeutic generation. Like most people are in therapy or taking meds or even just that’s the way they think about things rather than a biblical way of, like, my problems currently are more than likely a sinful response to living in a sinful world. So, it makes sense that they’re going to apply that in how they’re raising their children now.
Dale Johnson: Yeah, I think that’s good. Sam, I don’t know if you have any thoughts. I’ll sort of pitch it back this way because I think the concept of gentleness in and of itself, that is appealing, right? Especially if you had parents who were maybe overly harsh. And so, you hear the concept of gentle. But one of the critical things that you mentioned that I think is so important is we can’t just take the concept of gentleness and redefine it and think we can manufacture it.
Because the thing we prize about gentleness in Christian thinking is that it is a fruit of the Spirit. So, it’s not something that is manufactured in us in any particular way. I want to dive in a little bit because you talked about there’s speculation out there as to some of this concept of gentle parenting might be as much to manage the parent as it is to manage the child. Can you sort of develop that concept a little bit further?
Emily Stahly: So, one thing I think maybe is a good thing that gentle parenting emphasizes is that it challenges the parents to work on their own problems. But again, they’re going about it in a therapeutic way. Like, go get therapy. You need to regulate yourself so you can co-regulate with your child. This is the kind of language they’re using.
There’s also other things with breathing techniques to regulate the nervous system, you know, buy my supplements to help regulate your hormones so you’re not as stressed out. All of these things you’re going to be seeing or even some people will be claiming, you know, you need to go get therapy to resolve your past trauma in order to parent well.
Dale Johnson: I would even think about it like maybe the reason that I’m struggling to be gentle is because I’ve got all these issues and I can’t be gentle until I get all these things worked out. And, not only are you trying to manufacture something in your child, but you’re also trying to, in a humanistic way, manufacture a fruit of the Spirit in your own life. And that could be trouble. We would say, yes, we’re 100% in favor of being gentle, but the means by which that happens is that we’re conformed to the image of Christ. And as that character is now fashioned in us, what we see produced is a love genuinely and a gentleness towards our children.
Now, I think the reason that you have these types of ideas pop up so much in parenting in generational sort of ways, reactions against previous generations, is that parenting is hard. Parenting is really difficult. I mean, we’re at a stage now where we have a 21-year-old and we have a 10-year-old, and a span in between. And it’s so interesting to me.
You think, man, once you get to a certain stage of parenting, like, it’ll, like, loosen up. But it, like, doesn’t loosen up. And I don’t say that to destroy all of you here in the middle of parenting. It’s just there are different challenges at different stages. And it’s the Lord’s kind way of keeping this process of sanctification in your own life.
And so, parenting is hard. Now, when you think about failure as parents, what is it that, how should we respond, maybe I should say? And then maybe we can contrast this with the way gentle parenting does. How do we respond when we fail, when things are difficult, when we struggle? What does that look like?
Emily Stahly: I think repenting. You have to start there. And owning your own sin, whether, you know, it’s asking for forgiveness from your child, or, you know, you’ve sinned in your heart with just, like, being really angry. Then, like, taking that to the Lord.
I mean, this is very relevant for me. I have a seven-month-old. And a toddler. And it’s like that in-the-trenches parenting. And there’s been a couple of times, especially soon after the baby was born, just, like, having these overwhelming feelings of anger because it’s like, I’m tired. Nothing’s going right. I’m like, I don’t know what this baby wants. My toddler also needs me. And gentle parenting talks about regulating. Well, gentle parenting would offer me, like, do these breathing techniques, or do these things. Take a moment to yourself.
But what helped me the most was when I had the Lord remind me of Scripture. Specifically, Philippians 2. I was putting my interests to wanting to go lay down over the needs of my children to parent them and care for them. And once the Lord convicted me of that – instant peace and calm of, yes, I’m tired. Yes, I’m at the end of my rope. But that’s when I have to rely on the Lord. And that’s when He’s glorified, is when I rely on Him.
Not all these worldly means, because those things are going to fail. The things that gentle parenting offer, they may work, like, on a day-to-day basis if things are going well. But when you’re at the end of your rope as a parent, and that’s often at different phases, whether it’s, like, a rebellious teenager or a baby or a really defiant toddler, those things are not going to hold up when you’re at the end of yourself.
That’s when you have to rely on the Lord. And when you don’t have a habit of examining your heart and dealing with your own heart and the sin in your own heart, then inevitably you’re going to blow up. And then what’s left? You can tell your kid, I’m going to try to do better. I’m going to try to do things differently. But there’s no true reconciliation. There’s no true forgiveness or repentance or God-honoring change.
Dale Johnson: Yeah, I would echo that and say some of the most critical times in my parenting where I think it mattered the most was when you get down face-to-face with your child and you have to show that, listen, we’re on the same playing field and I’m a sinner just like you. And the way that I reacted to you, the way that I responded to you or acted toward you was not pleasing to the Lord. And you demonstrate, I call it, you demonstrate to them a way home because you are under authority as well and you’re teaching them how to do that.
You know, one of the things that I think this concept flourishes in an environment where need is created. And what I mean by that is it seems as though there’s sort of this fear of messing up your child forever, right? So, if you go back to even Freudian thought, like, I mean, if I believed in Freudian thinking, I mean, I would parent out of such unbelievable fear that whatever story is going to happen to them today, they’re not developing properly and this is going to like mess their life up and destroy them forever.
I’m not saying there aren’t consequential things that happen in our childhood that create trajectory or mold the heart in certain ways, but there seems to be this just sort of like, if attachment theory is true and if the concept of polyvagal and dysregulated emotions is true, then if I don’t get this right, then I’m responsible for destroying my child forever.
Describe that in terms of motivation, what seems to be motivating gentle parenting because it preys upon Christians in many ways because now my compassion is activated. Well, gosh, I don’t want to destroy my kids, you know? So, talk about that as far as a concept of motivation, if you would.
Sam Stephens: I’d like to jump in here and just say, we’ve talked about this more generally, but the therapeutic essentially puts too much confidence in man. The Bible does talk about fear being a motivator, but it’s a fear of God.
Everything that Emily just described in terms of what we should be doing as Christians recognizes that parenting as an endeavor is a spiritual endeavor. It is not a psychological endeavor. It is not a behavioral endeavor. Everything, as the Scripture says, flows from the heart, and the heart is biblically spiritual. We live before the face of God – that’s grown-ups and little people. We are all people.
Our children have souls, they have eternal destinies, and they have one God. And I think that the more quickly that Christians can be reminded, and listen, this is kind of a strange comfort, but when I read the Scriptures, Old and New Testament, right? One common theme I’ve picked up in my Christian walk is just the theme of remembrance, and I think it’s because we are quick to forget. So, man, I think we can all identify with that. There is no trouble for me reminding our listeners, reminding myself daily as I enter the Word, this is a spiritual endeavor, I need His help, and living before the face of God in an awe-inspiring, yet He’s my loving Father, fear, will help me in my parenting endeavor.
Because I think, too, when you had mentioned, we were talking about gentle and how that could be misconstrued and misunderstood, we don’t need to forget the second part of that, parenting. Gentle parenting has aims. It has goals. It’s not just out there floating loose and goosey. You know, the folks that would look at gentle parenting as a model for how to address whatever’s going on in their own personal lives or their children’s lives, they have some sort of goal in mind to where they want to lead their children.
But the Bible says there’s only two ends to that, and I’ve used that personally, Dale. We’ve been friends for many years, and I’ve seen your kids grow up into adults, the older ones, and everything you’ve said as I’ve started off parenting journey after you has been so helpful. And the discipline I lay before my children, the expectations, the methods the Scriptures provide for me, the tools, and there’s so much to make use of, has all been towards the end of, am I making a clearer way of the gospel, proclaiming the gospel to my children in the way that I’m parenting them? Am I bringing them to the Lord? Am I presenting, am I setting the table for them to feast on things that will lead them to salvation and sanctification or not?
And those are the two paths that the Scriptures lead for us. Everything else that the world presents, it either doesn’t present in those ways, right? The things that we’ve talked about, they get two things primarily wrong. The internal factors are spiritual, not psychological, in this very loose, general way of psychology, which is more emotionalism than anything else. And then the means by which we’re trying to address those are not just external. These are internal things.
That’s why the Bible as a resource should not be put on the shelf in favor of the most recent evidence-based, psychologically trauma-informed, all-the-dashes-you-want type of methodology. Us Christians, we’ve got to get back to the Word on this. One book I would recommend that has been a perennial, helpful book for me is The Duties of Parents by J.C. Ryle. And there’s one, he’s got a whole chapter, actually, in that book on discipline, on correction, on punishment, on the idea of you should parent and train your children with all tenderness, affection, and patience.
He says this, he notes that “love should be the thread that runs through all your conduct. Kindness, gentleness, a willingness to enter into childish troubles, a readiness to take part in childish joys. These are the cords by which a child may be led most easily. These are the clues you must follow if you would find the way to his heart.” And again, the heart he’s speaking about there is the spirit. It’s their soul. It is what’s going to lead them into eternity. And we want to direct them in love with the truth.
Emily Stahly: I love what you bring up about parenting out of fear of the Lord, because I think in so many ways, gentle parenting is really fear-based parenting because you’re afraid of messing up your child because you see yourself as messed up by how your parents raised you. And you’re like, I don’t want to be like my parents. So, you’re still letting your parents dictate how you’re parenting, but just in a reactionary way. And it’s so interesting to see that connection between how current parents have just accepted that therapeutic view of themselves.
So, I was doing just a little bit of research just to see what’s out there. And I saw this podcast clip of this woman talking about a lot of these mental health issues that parents are experiencing now is go back to how they were raised. So, she talks about growing up in a volatile home, the elevating stress hormones. It leads you to, and this is a quote, “to be hypervigilant to other people’s moods. You’re going to feel an exaggerated sense of responsibility for somebody else’s mind. You’ll take blame on,” so on and so forth. And so, I think parents see like, oh, I feel that. I don’t want that for my kids.
And so, you’re doing anything you can to avoid that. And gentle parenting is selling you this like, oh, your kid’s going to be happy and confident and secure if you parent this way. But really, what’s happening, and especially in Christian circles, is when we take Christ out of our day-to-day life, we go to church. We talk about Jesus in a kind of macro way.
But on a micro level, you’re relying on these coping mechanisms. You’re relying on breathing techniques and these strategies and containment. And that’s what you’re using for yourself and your children. But you’re not offering your children who Christ is and what he can do for you in a day-to-day way, in a sanctifying way. And that’s completely missing in a day-to-day way from even Christian gentle parenting. They don’t apply the Word to their own hearts with regard to anger and anxiety and depression and people-pleasing, which is fear of man.
So, they can’t translate that to talk to their child’s heart because they’re not doing it for themselves. And so, they’re wrapped up in this fear of, oh, man, I’m going to mess up. You have to obey out of fear of the Lord and follow His commandments and trust Him with your child. And I think that’s also what’s missing is that there’s no trust in the Lord for the outcome of your child, because there are godly parents that I know that have children that have rejected Christ. And there are people who have been raised in abusive homes and have been raised in very sinful ways that are walking with the Lord and enjoy life and have that peace that cannot be explained by this worldview.
You know, they talk about breaking cycles of like, oh, I don’t want to be like my parents. I want to break the cycle. But really, what breaks that cycle of sin is when you embrace what God has for your own heart, but then also teach your children that and then trust in Him.
Dale Johnson: Yeah, I mean, that is the language of Deuteronomy 6. It’s the language of Ephesians 6. You know, I’m so glad that you described some of these critical pieces because parents today, when they experience it, that way you described, Emily, the divorcing from, they’re sitting in church, the good theology that they’re hearing, they have a good confession. If you were to ask them a doctrine of sin, they can probably explain it to you.
But then when life hits Monday through, you know, Saturday, they’re experiencing some of these issues and they’re not interpreting it through that grid of the Scriptures. They’re actually interpreting it through these philosophical concepts because they sound impartial truth. And we love our children and we want what’s best. And we’ve bought the idea that this is what’s best for our children.
And so, what I want to do, we talked a little bit about the philosophy piece. And what I want to do, since we’re running out of time today, is come back next week and I want us to discuss change, how change actually happens. Sam, you sort of alluded to this in terms of discipline and the way the heart actually changes, and you used J.C. Ryle.
We’re going to compare some of those concepts and ideas when we talk about what they’re aiming at in terms of change. I think that would be a helpful way for us to continue this conversation. Really helpful today. Emily, thanks for joining us. Sam, so grateful for you joining us again and talking about this issue of gentle parenting.
