Dale Johnson: This week, I’m delighted to have with me on the podcast, Spencer Harmon. He serves as the Nocatee campus pastor of First Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida. Prior to coming to First Baptist, he served as a senior pastor at Vine Street Baptist Church in Louisville, Kentucky and he worked in higher education. He’s a certified biblical counselor through the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, and he is the co-author of three books: Letters to a Romantic: on Dating, Letters to a Romantic: on Engagement, and Letters to a Romantic: The first years of Marriage. Spencer, I give these books out all the time. And Spencer has been married to Taylor for 10 years and they have four children. They love spending time outside in beautiful Florida weather and being with their church family, at First Baptist. Brother, welcome to the podcast, so grateful for your time today.
Spencer Harmon: Glad to be here.
Dale Johnson: What an interesting subject and, listen, I’m just going to tell you I’m going to sit and glean from this today. I have children who are right in the middle of dealing with this whole technology thing and so you’re going to be shepherding me a little bit today as I think about and brainstorm: What is the best way to use a great resource, but also something that can be harmful and damaging? And so, I’m looking for this conversation today. Always when we think about technology, of course, it’s helpful and beneficial, but we can’t help but think about some of the pitfalls. I want you to identify, Spencer, some of those common pitfalls that you see families falling into when it comes to technology in the home.
Spencer Harmon: Yeah, absolutely. It’s interesting, as I am a pastor, I’m talking all the time with parents, both of little kids and of teenagers and you just start hearing some common themes, come up. And these are the conversations that I’m having with them. I’m also a dad of little kids ages, 2-9 and so we’re navigating this I feel like every day. And so, I would identify three or four themes. I think the first one is that a lot of parents and families don’t take tech seriously. One of the things that I think is important for families to know is that every screen, device, game, show, movie is seeking to conform your kids. So, if you just go to Romans 12:1-2, (a famous passage we talk about all the time as biblical counselors) it says, “do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.” There’s an assumption there. And the assumption is that the world is seeking to conform you. And there is actually this active resistance that needs to happen. And what I want to say to families is when your kids are engaging with tech, there’s conforming that’s going on. I like to compare it all the time: I live by the ocean. You know, you got into the ocean, and you might think, “Oh, it’s a neutral thing,” but everybody that has swam in the ocean before has had that experience before. You’re in the ocean. And then you’re kind of swimming around, and then you look and you realize you just moved about 50 feet down the beach. And I think that’s kind of what tech is like with families. They don’t recognize the force of it, so, they don’t take tech seriously.
I think another thing parents are doing is they don’t take the folly that’s in their children’s heart seriously. So, they hear the horror stories about tech in the world and think, “Oh, that wouldn’t happen to my kids,” but we all know Proverbs 22: 15, that says, that follies bound up in the heart of a child. So, your kids need you to shepherd them and technology and to not assume that my kids aren’t being shaped by the tech that they’re experiencing. You know, the other one is I talk about a lot to parents, that I think is one of the pitfalls is despair and surrendering their parental authority. So, we live in this digital age. The digital ship has sailed; our kids are immersed in it and a lot of parents are waking up to that. And they look around this, and say, “I don’t know what to do anymore.” And what I want to do with parents is go to Ephesians 6 and to say, “hey look, God has given you a role and you have authority in your home. We need to talk about how to practically do this, but the Lord has called you as the parent of this child to raise to raise them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord, and that applies to technology. So, let’s not surrender that authority. Let’s see this as a gift to your kids, and you’re the person that God is going to use to shepherd children through technology.” And listen to this last one: This is just anecdotal and a little practical one, but I’ve done some studying on tech and done some teaching at our church. And I’ve read all these books on technology from Christians and from non-Christians. And every single one without exception says, “never give privacy to your kids with technology” and I just think that’s an interesting pattern. Most of the trouble that I found in shepherding, in the church, starts with a kid with a smartphone alone in a room. And I just think there’s practical wisdom in that. When we take tech seriously in the formative impact it has, when we take the folly and sin of our children seriously, and our parental authority seriously, I think that results in: Let’s not put our kids in the ocean before they can swim without a life jacket on.
Dale Johnson: So good. I want to give some perspective. Spencer, I am in a very unusual generation when it comes to technology. Okay. So, we didn’t have a Smartphone. I never grew up with a smartphone. We had a flip phone, but I didn’t get one of those till I was 18 or older and I thought that was the coolest thing. My parents wouldn’t even allow me to have something like that. And I think now about allowing my kids to drive without some way to get a hold of them, but my parents did all that without—it’s just the weirdest thing—In High School, right? So, the way we used computers was for MS-DOS Oregon Trail. “I mean, you have dysentery.” So that’s exactly right. So alright, some perspective, right? So, this is the first generation—My Generation—who’s now raising kids who are in this tech savvy place. And I mean, it was like two or three years after that, where I have a brother who’s a little bit younger than me and they grew up knowing a lot more about computers, smartphones, and all the rest because that technology shift happened so fast. What’s interesting is, back to your parental authority question: My generation has a difficult time knowing the problems our kids can get into. Because okay, maybe I don’t understand all the things that our smartphones can do. I appreciate the things that it can do, but I don’t know all the things it can do.
So, there’s this massive discrepancy between their abilities and their knowledge of certain things that maybe my generation and just before me, we don’t. have another element that I think is really interesting: I heard a guy friend of mine teaching about this one time. And he was like, “You know, when we were growing up, if we wanted to have friends, our parents knew who those friends were. And if we were going to go over their house, my parents spoke to their parents and they were vetting those kids to see if they were going to let somebody in who was going to influence me. That kid would walk through the front door. Now, it’s like you can have kids come into your home and they don’t walk through the front door, they come through a screen, right? And whether it be texting or Face Timing or whatever the venue is. So, it’s really interesting as to how those things can be challenged. And then as parents, like how do we navigate that? Right. So, I don’t want to be oppressive, but I also want to uphold that parental authority and protect my child in a way that is really good and helpful. So, these pitfalls that you’re describing are absolutely resonating. Talk about if you can, some practical ways that families can really use this as moments to disciple, because for us in our family that’s a part of what we’ve tried to do. Listen, these things can be good things used for the glory of God, but by the same token, they can also be damaging and decaying and destructive. And so, talk about how these things can be used to disciple our children through the use and stewardship of something like technology.
Spencer Harmon: Yeah, absolutely. I just I can’t help but reaffirm that point that our generation is really the first generation of parent that is shepherding children that are in an immersive digital age. I’ve talked with people before and asked them to raise their hand if, “Hey, can you remember the first time you heard the dial-up sound on the internet?” And most people in a classroom do that now, but our kids now do not know a world without smartphones. And so, this is a really important thing that we have to think about as the church. So, when I talk about this with folks, I turn to Deuteronomy chapter 6. This really famous passage of discipleship and family discipleship. And I try to I give three different “C’s”. So, I’ve got this kind of alliterated with three different C’s on how parents can engage in discipleship with their faith, with their kids through technology.
So, the first one is company, and the idea here is that you should keep company with your kids as they’re engaging with technology. So, I’m just thinking about Deuteronomy 6 and the instruction that Moses gives here to parents. He says, “you shall teach God’s words diligently to your children.” Talk to them, “when you sit in your house, when you walk, by the way, when you lie down, when you rise, bind them as a sign on your hand,” he says all these things to parents and the assumption in these passages is that parents are present with their kids. They are present. They’re right there with them and they are talking with them about what’s happening and applying God’s Word to it. So, I want to say to parents keep company with your kids when they’re engaging with technology. So, watch movies with your kids. Watch the show with your kids. You know, as your kids get older and they start engaging with technology. So, every parent disagrees on when to you give phones and tablets out? I think the later the better. Let it be known, but if a kid that’s let’s say 17 years old comes up to you, as a parent, and they say, “hey, Mom and Dad. I’m on this text thread and I just want you to see what this person said. Help me think about that.” That is a win as a parent, right? It’s like when a kid is pointing the phone at you and saying, “would you help me think through this,” and then you get to open up God’s word and keep company with them. You’re present with them and they’re talking with you about the things that are coming at them through the screen.
And that leads to the second C, which is conversation. So keep company and then have conversations. The big thing in Deuteronomy 6 is there’s talking everywhere. You go, you’re talking. So, in our home, we’ve got little kids. We had this funny moment recently: We were watching a movie together. I’ve got an eight-year-old and a 9-year-old girl. And in the movie, there are two characters, a man and a woman that weren’t married and they kissed each other. And you know, my girls, they’re like giggling and bashful and covering their eyes. And they don’t know what to do. And I actually think it would have been bad if in that moment there was nothing explicit happening, it just happened on the screen. It was relatively innocent right? But our kids were bashful and if we would have said, “We’re not looking at that, we’re not talking,” But we actually were able to do is stop and say, “Okay let’s talk about this. That isn’t God’s design. It’s not God’s design for you to share that sort of intimacy with each other when you’re not married. Here is God’s design for intimacy.” I think that’s a win as a parent. You’re talking with your kids about things that they are engaging with.
And the third C is curation. Now, this is probably what most parents think about with technology. It’s a really important piece. We are the shepherds of our children and it’s really important for us to curate what our kids are getting exposed to. There’s lots of tools available that I think a lot of parents aren’t aware of: That you can control when Wi-Fi is going in your house and when it’s not. You can decide when your kids get a phone and when they don’t. You can decide the things that are being watched in your home and what isn’t. And there’s just a responsibility that we have as parents to shepherd: What voices are my kids getting exposed to? And curation is a really big part of that. So, I think those are just some hooks for people to grab onto and to think about. Am I keeping company with my kids? Are my kids present with me the majority of the time they’re engaging with tech? Am I talking with them about the stuff that they’re engaging with and are we bringing God’s Word to bear? And then I mean, honestly, are there things that we are not in with tech? and that’s important. You should be curating it as a family, not just letting it come at you.
Dale Johnson: And I like the idea that you’re putting all three of those together, right? If you’re doing curation without being with them—company, and without conversation, then you’re going to miss the point, and they’re going to take that as being some sort of legalistic thing. And you know what happens when we are legalistic toward our children—they now want the thing you’re keeping them from more than anything else. And so, you have to have those other two elements. I’ll mention one that we use is Qustodio. It is something that we use on our children’s phone. My two oldest have phones our 20-year-old and 17-year-old. And we use that, it’s been very helpful. You know, there are limitations as far as watching apps and things like that. One of the things that I appreciate about it personally, is it gives us opportunity that if they want to add any app, we have to be notified with that. And then there’s a conversation that happens on whether that’s wise or not. So, even though my kids have smartphones, they don’t have wide open access to that. And we limit that through several different means. And there are others that are out there as well, but I found it to be very helpful and I’m not getting paid to say that. Actually, I pay them. So, this is very helpful, Spencer. I want to talk a little bit about evaluation. How do we think about this? Because I think this is sometimes parents struggle where, you know. “Oh man, other kids are getting these smartphones. And my kid feels left out. And I’m such a terrible parent because my kid wants to be involved, and I really want them to be involved.” And then, “When is a good time? I don’t want to give my something my kids something that causes harm to them if they’re not ready. But you know, I don’t want to keep them from something that they could enjoy, if they are ready.” How do you evaluate that kind of stuff, right? When do I introduce my kids to technology? What kinds of technology? How do you think through that with your children?
Spencer Harmon: Yeah, I think that there are biblical categories for us to think through that aren’t profound or new but can be applied to technology. And then thinking about how it applies to tech really help us. So, what I often do with folks I’m teaching is I’ll just draw a big triangle. And then in middle of the triangle, I’ll just write: How should I use technology? And then at the very tip top of that triangle I’ll say, glorify God. So, this is simple, right? 1 Corinthians 10:31, “Whatever you do, you do it to the glory of God.” And this is an important thing to say. I think people are starting to wake up to the dangers of technology. God wants us to create. He wants us to take the things that are in the world and make things out of them. So, technology can be a great gift that we can use to glorify God, but we don’t want to start the conversation with our kids not with, “Okay, what are all of your friends doing? What are all of the other parents letting their kids do?” The real question is, “What is the best way we can glorify God in our home as we parent, as we love these kids, and as we steward them?” So that’s the first one: How do we do tech to the glory of God? And I think there’s two specific biblical principles.
So, on one side of the bottom of the triangle here, you can receive technology as a gift. So, 1 Timothy 4:4- 5 says that you can receive all these things, and they’re made holy through thanksgiving, right? So, God gives us things for us to receive from Him and the blessings that come. I mean, you just think about the fact that we very rarely get lost on the road these days. And that’s because we have GPS on our phone. That’s an enormous blessing that I receive as a gift, personally. And then there are other ways you can receive technology as a gift. I know for our family, we will have a specific night where we watch a movie together and it actually brings us together as a family. We’re engaging in something together. We’re talking about themes and things that are happening, that’s a gift. So, there’s a way you can receive it. And I think one evaluation question you can ask, that I’ve heard other authors and pastors say before is: “As I’m engaging with this tech, can I thank God for it with a clear conscience?” Right? So, I can actually after I watch that, after I’ve been on this website, or whatever, can we actually thank God for this in a way that is really consistent with the Scriptures?
The last side of the triangle, I would say, is to do good with technology. So, you think about Luke 10:27 says, “to love your neighbor as you love yourself.” How can we use technology to do that? I’m a pastor at a church. People are having babies. People are getting sick. People have lots of needs. One of the ways I’m so thankful for technology is that meal trains can get started. You don’t have to call a bunch of people on the phone to write down on a list. You just make a website. You put all the allergies up. You put the address on, you say when to deliver the meal and it’s all taken care of. That’s a way to do good. And so, I think if you put all those things together: For the glory of God, receiving it as a gift, doing good with technology that helps you begin to evaluate things. Are we really using this for the glory of God? And you think about gifts: Is this technology a gift that we can thank God for or is it a God in our life now that’s enslaving us? And we have to use it all the time. Then are we actually using this to do good and to bless others or for our own selfish gain? I think answering those types of questions, putting it through that grid can really help parents make some biblical decisions.
Dale Johnson: Outstanding, brother. And listen, I personally want to say thank you for spending the time to think about this, and do more than wrestle with: “Okay, there’s this problem…We’re seeing social media is bad, all these statistics are terrible, and so we’re just going to be reactionary to it.” You are thinking biblically about this and then by that labor, now, helping us to think biblically about it as well. So, thanks for your time. I really appreciate you challenging us here as we deal with this gift of technology.
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