Heath Lambert: One problem that so many Christians struggle with is dealing with the question of can I lose my salvation or have I lost my salvation? We could talk about it in the category of the assurance of salvation, and many people struggle with assurance. It causes a great deal of despair, heartache, and pain in the lives of so many people, and so we want to talk about that in very practical terms on the podcast this week. To help us with that is our guest, Dr. Bill Shannon. He is a fellow with the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, and he is the pastor of discipleship at Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California. Dr. Shannon, we’re glad you’re with us, and the first question right out of the gate is, is it true? Can you lose your salvation?
Dr. Bill Shannon: Well, I think, if we look at the Scriptures and when Jesus Christ invites us to eternal salvation, eternal actually means eternal and that no, you cannot lose your salvation. There are many people that have had friends that have walked away from the faith, and they wonder what happened to my friend. Did he lose his salvation? And my answer to that would be that he never really had his salvation. He never really knew Jesus Christ. I think 1 John 2:19 is the Scripture that would point to that, “they went out from us because they did not really know us, and they went out from us just to show us that they never really knew Christ.” And I think that’s the definitive Scripture for that when we look at salvation, it is assured. Frankly, it’s assured by the character of God. If God is faithful, then he’s going to continue to keep that faithfulness with us in that salvation that he has promised to us.
Heath Lambert: So, that answer is gloriously true. And we learn it from the pages of Scripture, but here’s the problem. You’ve encountered this a hundred times. Somebody comes up, and they believe that they have made a genuine profession of faith and made a profession of faith that reflected actual faith. They thought they confess their sins and ask for forgiveness, and trusted the Lord. But they have been in a season of maybe even very, very serious sin. And they’re coming in, they’re saying, what’s wrong with me? Am I saved? If I’m saved why is this happening in my life? Sometimes they don’t even ask the questions. Sometimes they come a little differently, and they say, I don’t have to worry about this. I’m a Christian. None of this matters. How do we evaluate patterns of sin consistently in our life after a profession of faith?
Dr. Bill Shannon: Well, it would be wonderful if we could have a true heart exam and see exactly what’s going on in the heart and I think Galatians 5:17, where the flesh is battling against the spirit, is what we have going on. And that kind of person that’s truly a Christian, there’s this battle going on, but the person is given himself over to sin and continues to practice this. It says in Galatians 5 that if they continue to practice these things, they will not inherit the kingdom of God. I asked myself, when I’m teaching, how much practice is necessary to get to that point? Frankly, I wouldn’t want to get anywhere near the line. We should be running away from the line, and unfortunately, some people get into a habitual sin and they continue to go after it. Galatians 6:1 says that “you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness.” We want to come alongside that person and want first to confront them in gentleness, we want to confront them in warning that what you’re doing should not be continuing. That if you do continue, that would give us a reflection of what is really true in your heart.
Heath Lambert: What you just said, you made a crucial qualification. You said if that person is truly saved. In ministry, in a Christian friendship, how do we get to the bottom of that?
Dr. Bill Shannon: All we have as a means of seeing somebody, whether they’re truly a Christian, is to look at the fruit. Years ago I was counseling a man and his marriage and I must have met with him 40 times, and at the end of it, I said to myself, I just wonder if you’re a Christian. And so I went through the fruit of the spirit with him and his wife, and I asked him, there’s nine fruit here, and we went through each one, is that in your marriage? And I got 18 no’s. I was shocked. I was truly shocked by that. Then I went to the deeds of the flesh which are a few verses before that verses 19 and 20, and I said, there’s something here that I would like to ask you and so I ask them those questions and they said yes, yes, and yes. Again, I think that’s the definition there. When I got finished speaking to this man, he looked at me says, “Bill. All you are is a fruit picker.” I was shocked at that because I know that if somebody said that to me I’d be down with my head on the ground begging God to forgive me. And I said, you know, Jesus spoke in John 15 and he said, “You shall know them by their fruit.” And if Jesus says, you shall know them by their fruit, and that’s all I can do, is look at the fruit. I mean, we have a lot of people in the church and they do nice things and they set up the chairs nice and all of that, but they still have a life that’s not truly given over to the Lord, it’s still corrupt. We don’t know that until they finally come in and start asking those kinds of questions or we see something or we start to confront them with various sins that they may have.
Heath Lambert: So when a person has genuine repentance and genuine faith, it will express itself in fruits that demonstrate repentance. If we’re looking at the fruit, evaluating fruit just the way Jesus tells us to do, do we ever have the freedom or the responsibility to look at somebody and say, you are not a Christian?
Dr. Bill Shannon: I don’t think as a pastor I would want to do that. I think we see even in 1 Corinthians 5, Paul says about the man who is committing sin with his stepmother, he says, “we will give him over to Satan, that he may have his way with him.” He didn’t say anything about whether he’s a Christian or not, doesn’t say whether he’s a believer or not. Let him do that so that the Lord can have his way. And so I think even for us, we have to be careful about declaring somebody not a Christian. Even when we do church discipline, we’re basically saying that they’re no longer wanted in the community of believers because of their sins, but the Lord can still do something with them. And as matter of fact, I’ve seen people come back after the fourth step of church discipline and confess their sins. So I don’t know that that I would want to do that, so say that they’re not a Christian, but I have the hopes as a pastor always of God doing something in their life.
Heath Lambert: Let’s come at it from a different direction. A woman comes up; maybe it’s after the sermon. We start talking with her and we find out there is no pattern of sin in her life that she can identify. She’s walking with the Lord. She’s in a relationship with other believers. She’s present at church. She’s studying her Bible, she’s living the Christian life, but she’s going, “I don’t feel saved. I’m not sure that I’m saved. I want to be sure that I am found in Christ when my life is at an end, but I’m just not sure.” How would we help someone like that?
Dr. Bill Shannon: Well, I’ve actually had that kind of a situation and after I’d finished preaching a lady came up and says, “can God really save me? I’m coming to church. I read my Bible. I do all of these things, but I had four abortions. Can God really save me?” And I said, “you have to understand the character of God. He’s a forgiving God. Isaiah 43:25 says, “I even, I am the one who wipes out your transgression for my My own sake.” I said, “just think about what it says there. He’s forgiving you for His sake because He receives glory.” The next part of that verse says, “and I will not remember your sins anymore.” God is the one who’s already forgiven you, and you have to understand that. Once you believe that truth, you can trust that you will have that kind of assurance.
