Dale Johnson: This week on the podcast, I’m thrilled to have with me Dr. Stephen Yule. He’s married to Allison. They have two daughters and two grandsons. Dr. Yule is the Director of Puritan Publishing at Reformation Heritage Books.
He also serves as pastor at Fairview Covenant Church in Granbury, Texas. He’s a professor of church history at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth. Dr. Yule, it’s always good to be with you. Thanks for being here.
Stephen Yuille: It’s good to be with you, too.
Dale Johnson: Now, walking with Watson, people hear that they’re probably not certain what in the world we’re going to talk about. But we’re talking about Thomas Watson and really the idea is why we should make old brothers of the past some of our best friends and why they can be an encouragement to us. Thomas Watson certainly fits that bill. So first of all, we should introduce our listeners to who in the world is Thomas Watson.
Stephen Yuille: That is a good place to start. Thomas Watson, an old English Puritan—so, we’re back in the 1600s, a graduate of Cambridge, ministered in the city of London for more or less 40 years, married, seven children, and a prolific preacher, prolific author, probably without debate one of the most readable Puritans that have come down to us. His works are—I mean, their depth and their breadth, they are quite unique because of their accessibility and readability.
So, that’s a little bit about Thomas Watson. We don’t have a lot of background information on his upbringing. We do know something of his involvement with the Westminster Assembly and some of the political goings-on of the 1650s, but we can leave all that aside.
Dale Johnson: Now we’re talking about many years of church history and lots of faithful brothers and sisters who have built sturdy shoulders for us to stand upon, and Thomas Watson is one of those guys. But what stands out? What makes him significant that we would consider his life, his ministry, his work?
Stephen Yuille: Again, I think you’re getting everything in one. And so you can read certain Puritans, and they excelled in particular areas. What is, I wouldn’t say unique to Watson, but certainly true of him, is the fact that you’re getting everything. Again, breadth and depth.
And so you think of a consummate theologian. He has a book called A Body of Practical Divinity, which is a series of sermons he preached on the Westminster Shorter Catechism. And it is excellent, is the word, in terms of his articulation of key concepts, doctrines, truths, as it related to the Christian faith. You can go from that to his emphasis on the gospel. You know, who Christ is, what Christ has done, how that relates to us, the remission of our sin, the regeneration of our nature, and the adoption of our person.
Those three motifs just figure prominently everywhere in his works. I think probably what resonates most when it comes to Watson is he, I think in part from his own experience, and certainly, you know, as a pastor engaging with people in the pew in his church, what I call the three S’s of sin, sadness, and suffering. They’re everywhere. Those were the realities he was facing, the realities his people were struggling with, and so he is always, it seems to be always touching on one of those. Sin, sadness, and suffering, and bringing scripture to bear upon those three as he seeks to shepherd his people homeward, so to speak, and keep them on the straight and narrow.
And so, there is just a practicality about his writings. There is a beauty, an eloquence, a cadence to his writing, quite unique to that time period. And again, I use the words readability, accessibility, even for us as modern readers. Sure, there are going to be one or two things, historical, cultural nuances, let’s say, that we might not quite get, but for the most part, he is an enjoyable read, profitable. Wherever you open Watson, there’s great profit for the soul.
Dale Johnson: Those things resonate. I mean, sin, sadness, and suffering, how applicable it is even in our modern complex world that we live in today. Now, you keep using this word puritan to describe him. I want you to describe what you mean when you use that term. To some people, it might sound like, you know, chasing witches in New England. So, let’s give some clarity on what you mean when you use that term.
Stephen Yuille: Yeah, I’m glad you raised that because when most people hear that word puritan, they immediately think of their grade 10 history textbook, one or two pages on Salem burning witches, and then Jonathan Edwards’ famous sermon of God dangling sinners over hell by a spider’s web.
And, you know, typically then that word puritan, as it’s now used in this modern day, dark, dour, killjoy, depressed, if anyone was ever depressed, and there is that quip, right? Puritanism is the haunting fear that someone somewhere might be happy. We need to dismiss all that and realize those are miscarriagatures that have come down to us. They have nothing to do with historical fact.
We go back and we read them and discover who they really were. The place to begin is to recognize that no one’s walking around in the 1600s saying, “hey, look at me, I’m a puritan,” because it is actually a negative term. It has a negative connotation, and it’s a word that people throw around, a bit like we might use the word fanatic today. So, you’re a fanatic, you’re a puritan.
It’s used firstly to describe that movement within the Church of England, which really arose in the 1550s and continued right through to the 1660s, over 100 years, those who wanted to reform the Church of England, move it away from what they perceived to be still some of the trappings of Roman Catholicism and unbiblical practices.
That movement within the Church, those individuals, men and women, they were just kind of dismissed as, “oh, puritans, you want to purify the Church.” And then the word is also used in a theological way, because the Church of England, the 39 Articles of the Church of England, is a reformed confession of faith. And you read Article 17 of that confession, and it’s quite clear, but there’s a movement away from a reformed understanding of the gospel in the 1620s in particular.
And those who held to a more reformed understanding of the gospel, God’s sovereign grace and salvation, well, they’re dismissed as puritans. And then thirdly, if I haven’t complicated the issue too much and lost our listeners, and this is the area I’m really interested in, and I think what pertains most to us today, is the term is used to describe those in the late 1500s, 1600s, are dissatisfied with the prevailing concept of godliness and what it means to be a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ.
And so, there is this mindset, you know, they refer to it as morality or civility—that as long as you’re an upstanding citizen, you’re in church on a Sunday morning, you’ve been baptized in the Church, and you’re able to recite the Ten Commandments, the Apostles’ Creed, and the Lord’s Prayer, and you avoid any heinous sin, that makes you a good Christian.
And there are those who recognize, no, there’s more to it than that. I mean, God has predestined us to be conformed to the likeness of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. What does that conformity look like? What does it look like when God’s grace actually breaks forth in an individual’s life?
And how is it manifested in repentance: new obedience, perseverance, endurance, patience, the fruit of the Spirit? And how is it manifested then in the home: in roles, husband, wife, children, parent, in the workplace, engagement with unbelievers? How does it affect my recreation, my apparel, my clothing, my eating, drinking habits? And they believe the gospel has implications for every facet of life. And then very much coupled with that—okay, I get it—the pursuit of godliness, what godliness looks like.
How is that cultivated in the individual’s life? And so, tremendous emphasis on what we would call spiritual disciplines or spiritual duties, where they would have gravitated toward the expression, the means of grace.
And I think this is, when we hear the word Puritan, we want to think of that latter category because it has the most relevance for us today. It’s a movement then that its influence is felt through the centuries down to the present. And when most people today are going back and reading the Puritans in our circles, that’s what they’re gravitating to.
That’s the emphasis that they are looking for. And I think that’s what a lot of people are discovering to be so profitable and why Puritans have become a more common word in our day. We hear it. We see it popping up everywhere. And why some of these authors are being republished in our day and capturing our modern imagination.
Dale Johnson: When we think about the Puritans, and I love that description, I appreciate how you’ve summarized this. You know, we as Christians, we don’t look back in church history and think there was a golden age or a perfect age. And man, we wish it could just be just like that. There’s no perfect people. So, we’re not claiming that they were perfect.
In fact, what we long for is heaven. That’s when things will be made fully right. But there is certainly, based on Hebrews, some things that we can look back and appreciate. And Thomas Watson is certainly one of those guys.
I mean, I have my students read the Doctrine of Repentance, for example. I have them read A Godly Man’s Picture. You mentioned A Body of Divinity. So I certainly see it as really critical reading, to help us really step outside of the cultural air that we breathe, and how influenced we are by naturalism and physicalism and our cultural norms.
And it’s just helpful to be saturated with Christ and how they see, especially in a difficult time. And reading Watson really helps in that way. So, why do you consider him, as I would, essential reading for believers, especially in terms of practical theology?
Stephen Yuille: I mean, you’ve touched on a few things there, and it’s worth repeating because it does stand out and it is really important that Watson predates what we would call the enlightenment and everything that follows on its heels. So you think of Darwin, you think of Freud, you think of all the ologies of social sciences, sociology, psychology, anthropology. He predates all of it. And so there is, when you read Watson, when you read these authors that predate the enlightenment, it is like a breath of fresh air because everything is viewed through the lens of Scripture and everything is focused on God, our triune God, and our relationship with him.
And that is an emphasis that is sorely lacking today. That makes Watson, in and of itself, of utmost importance. But then you couple that with a man who was acquainted himself with suffering, a man who knew what it was to face affliction. I mean, he was ejected from his living. You know, seven children at home, married. His wife’s name was Abigail. He’s ejected from the church in 1662 and has to make ends meet.
And the opposition and the persecution, and I think that suffering puts an edge on his writings because there is this just repeated emphasis on the hope of glory and making our future hope a present reality and what it means for our future hope to shape our approach, going back to those three of sin, sadness, and suffering, and bringing it to bear. That is so profitable for us because it is a unique emphasis, especially today when we expect to live into our 80s.
Yes, we know what pain is, but not compared to the experience of it in the 1600s without all of our modern medical advancements and amenities. So, there is this edginess to their writings. Now, they have one foot in heaven. I mean, it’s just the reality of the age in which they lived.
And I find that to have a very straightening effect upon me as I read them. And it’s something that really resonates within my heart because they are taking the truths and the realities of Scripture and just the immediate application of them to life circumstances. It just resonates deep within the heart.
Dale Johnson: Very practical question, Stephen, as we think about what somebody like Thomas Watson has to offer biblical counselors. I want to ask that question. But before, as you mentioned Freud, it’s very interesting that Watson obviously in timeline comes before Freud. And it’s very interesting that one of Freud’s primary goals was to rid the world of a puritanical ethic and specifically a puritanical sexual ethic.
Because if you understand Sigmund Freud, I mean, that was one of his primary goals. He believed libido was this massive sexual drive. So anybody, when I read Freud, anybody that Freud is opposing, it actually piques my ears and piques my interest in wanting to read, well, what was it that this guy said? What was it that this group of people said that caused Freud such a reaction? And in that way, that brings it to our context as biblical counselors.
Like he’s saying something that obviously those in the secular world were trying to oppose, and that piques my interest. So, what does he have to lend to us as biblical counselors today?
Stephen Yuille: The answer is multifaceted. But in the context of what you’ve just been saying, I mean, it is the doctrine of original sin. That sounds so simplistic, but it is simple. It is, how do we view the fall and its impact upon humanity? That is an issue, not just as it relates then to Freud and all who follow in his wake, but even among Christians, even among evangelicals.
And how do we understand what it means to be created in the image of God and then subsequently what it now means to have fallen into a state, a condition of sin whereby that image is marred and corrupted.
That is of fundamental importance when it comes to the Puritans, and it is paradigm shaping for them. Everything flows from a proper understanding of who we were pre-fall versus post-fall, and therefore the gospel and the remedy that is offered in and through the Lord Jesus Christ.
That’s just in terms of paradigm, there’s no way around it. Our doctrine of sin and what it is, what it really is, the Puritans are very helpful. This is where they do open themselves up for some criticism, the dark, dour Puritan, obsessing over sin. Again, it’s a misrepresentation. They do spend a lot of time on the subject, but only because they believe when we understand sin, we magnify the beauty of Christ.
We only really grow in our appreciation of the Lord Jesus as we conversely grow in our appreciation of our need and our predicament. And then coupled with that, understanding the condition of the heart and how the gospel in Christ is the remedy for that. I mean, that then just figures prominently. And so, for biblical counselors, that is a conviction that underlies, underpins absolutely everything Watson says. And there is no wiggle room.
There’s no negotiating. There’s no getting around it. It shapes the paradigm. And if that isn’t firmly in place, yeah, we’re going to veer off left, right, and end up in all sorts of places—and history testifies to that.
And then I think also important then when it comes to Watson and biblical counselors today, he has that paradigm in terms of understanding the implications of the fall, how it shapes his understanding of the gospel, and he gets very specific then when it comes to dealing with particular issues, sins, struggles, afflictions, trials, whatever we want to call them.
His diagnosis is spot on, extremely biblical, but he doesn’t stop there. He doesn’t come up short in terms of, well, here’s the problem. He will spend a lot of time when it comes to—he will use the word duties or remedies. And so, here is the diagnosis. Here is what’s going on.
But he gives it to us in his sermons, in his published works. This is now what we are called to do in terms of active obedience and putting into practice Scripture as it relates to this particular issue, problem, challenge, whatever the case may be.
It’s almost at times like reading a manual because he writes in that way, very systematic. Here’s the issue I’m addressing, and here is how Scripture explains it and identifies the problem. And on that basis, therefore, here is what Scripture says in terms of either remedying it or persevering through it or repenting and turning from it.
And so just very useful. There’s no other word for it. And most of the Puritans write like that, but Watson excels at it, and there is just an immediate usefulness to his writings.
Dale Johnson: Okay, you’ve convinced us to walk with Watson, and we know this is a good idea. We’re going to learn some things, even applicable to the ministry of the Word, that we have.
Where do we start? Because we mentioned several books, and he’s written a lot. So where do we begin? If I were to pick up one book, good place to start, an introduction of Watson, where do I go?
Stephen Yuille: Okay, that is a great question. Here’s how I’m going to answer this one. What I would encourage our listeners to do, no joke, is start saving your money. And the target date is April of next year. I think it will probably be the summer of next year. So what are we talking about then?
Maybe eight, nine months from now, The Complete Works of Thomas Watson will be available for the first time in history. And so his works, a lot of the Puritans’ works were gathered in the 1800s, published in sets. You can think of John Owen, Thomas Goodwin. For some reason, Watson was overlooked. I cannot fathom why that was.
But we have rectified it at Reformation Heritage Books. Everything he ever wrote will be available in these seven volumes. And I would really encourage our listeners, if you, you know, I often get asked, you know, which Puritan should I read first? And it’s always Thomas Watson.
If you were to buy the seven volumes of Thomas Watson and simply make it your ambition to read them over the course of the next five, six, seven years and to appropriate from them and master some of the specific works in those volumes, you will have opened up a resource, a treasure, that will feed your own soul in so many ways and enable and equip you when it comes to ministering in others’ lives.
I know I have a vested interest in that as, you know, my involvement with Reformation Heritage Books. But I’m convinced of it that, you know, you get those seven volumes, make Watson your best friend, it will serve you well.
Now, if you’re thinking to yourself, well, ‘okay, I want to just read one little book first and make sure before I invest that kind of money that, yeah, there’s going to be some reward here.’ And so, Banner of Truth has a little book called All Things for Good. It was originally published under the title Divine Cordial by Thomas Watson, but All Things for Good, and it’s simply his little sermon series exposition of Romans 8:28, that we know that God works all things together for good to those who love Him and to those who are called according to His purpose.
Watson walks us through just the wonder of God’s providence and how God uses all things, including good things and bad things, in our lives for our good. And so there is pastoral wisdom at its finest, and it speaks into everyone’s condition. And there is so much biblical knowledge and wisdom there that you will immediately be able to apply in your own life and be used by God’s grace in the lives of others.
It’s not a huge book, it’s manageable, probably get through it in a few easy readings. That would be the place to begin. That would give you the taste, and that would convince you, boy, if that’s what he has to offer, I’m buying the seven volumes when they come out next year.
Dale Johnson: Yeah, I would definitely second that. I think you won’t go wrong reading Thomas Watson, and the applicability of our own personal lives is incredible, and the usefulness in the ministry of the Word, the model, the example, the way in which he uses the Scriptures is stellar.
Stephen, thanks brother, for guiding us through and encouraging us to walk with men like Watson in the work that they did in ministry and how useful it is today. It’s been great to be with you.
