Dale Johnson: This week on the podcast I have with me Dr. Greg Gifford. He’s an Assistant Professor of Biblical Counseling at the Master’s University. He earned a PhD in Biblical Counseling from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and he holds a Master of Arts in Biblical Counseling from the Master’s University as well as a BA in Pastoral Ministry from Baptist Bible College. He’s a certified counselor with the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors. He’s an ordained pastor and he’s a member of the Evangelical Theological Society.
When not teaching, Greg enjoys counseling for Lowcountry Biblical Counseling Center, serving as an associate pastor in his local church, wrestling with his two boys and eating good food with his wife. Dr. Gifford, welcome to the podcast. Looking forward to this very new, innovative topic today.
Greg Gifford: Yeah, thanks for having me.
Dale Johnson: Now, first for our listeners, just describe this concept of AI therapy. I mean, people are hearing all over the place about the use of AI everywhere in social media, on the internet, how useful something like this can be. And now we’re talking about AI in the therapeutic offering counseling. Just describe a little bit about what we’re describing today.
Greg Gifford: It’s interesting because AI is everywhere and it’s also entering into this therapeutic realm where you’re having chatbots as therapists. So there are now platforms, some are free. Freeaitherapy.com for instance, would be an example where you can go on, insert your problem and the chatbot starts to prompt you with thoughts, things to consider.
Character.ai also has a decision helper where you go on and you start to say, “Hey, I’m thinking about a new job, or I’m thinking about changing my relationship up.” And now chatbots are really guiding you through that process. So these chatbots are, they’re generative. They’re creating knowledge and collating knowledge.
They’re answering your question. And it is somewhat based off how you’re, you’re asking the question though. It’s not entirely based off that. And then they’re giving you moral guidance for practical spiritual answers. And it’s, it’s staggering to see how many people are actually using these. And one of the episodes on transformed at that moment, there were 9.1 million users for a chatbot on decision-making, 9.1 million.
So I have no way of verifying that, but I was, I was thinking, man, people are really looking for answers and they’re looking for— I would say they’re looking for guidance in a very subjective world, even getting to the point of going to a chatbot to help synthesize and almost be like a sounding board. So one, one last dynamic too, as people are going to these chatbots for relationships, think of companionship that comes through a chatbot.
People are getting lost in understanding what is real world and what is this alternate reality of a chatbot because the chatbots are actually that good. They’re that compassionate. It’s kind of like a long distance relationship. Some of these individuals are saying. So it’s therapy, it’s guidance and it’s companionship. It’s really entering into some of the world of biblical counseling.
Dale Johnson: I find this fascinating because, you know, as I think about chatbots, what my mind immediately goes to is, you know, I have an issue maybe with a purchase on Amazon or with my financial institution. And I need to ask a question and you know what, I want to talk to a real person. And what I find is their first line of defense and interference is I get to, you know, speak to a chatbot and I’m trying to describe—and if I don’t say my question exactly right, I go down this trail of all these different things.
And I mean, you know how that story goes. And so it’s interesting when you think about chatbots, one of my concerns about this whole concept is can they compile a lot of information at one time? Yes, absolutely. But are they telling you true things? This is another question altogether because all they can gather are the things that have been written. We’re not verifying whether these things are actually true or right or wrong. We’re just looking at the mass of information that’s been written and we’re compiling that to give some sort of advice. And even through some sort of AI approach, they’re compiling what they see is, you know, under these characters and trying to discern something. And you’re right, it is a form of guidance or counsel that’s being given and somebody’s building the algorithm at which we get, you know, what spits back out in a chatbot. So talk a little bit about how these chatbots are being used. We’ve experienced them in other realms, but in therapy, how are these chatbots being used?
Greg Gifford: I asked a chatbot if I should divorce my wife. I was very interested in what chatbot might say. I let her know that.
Dale Johnson: I was going to say, hopefully Amber was with you and she’s a part of this experiment watching what’s going to happen.
Greg Gifford: Yeah, I totally, I brought her in, you know, I wanted to ask it to give me guidance on what to do in my relationship. I brought a legitimate work frustration to a chatbot. So at masters at that time, there was this particular administrative issue. And I just thought, well, let me just be truthful about it. And I was, I was actually shocked to see how compassionate this chatbot was.
And it was eerie. It was like talking to a really kind long distance friend. So they’remsaying, “oh, thank you for trusting me. Thanks for sharing this information. You have the right to be heard.” And in the question about divorcing Amber, as uncomfortable as that makes us feel, it said, “you know, you, you have to love you. You need someone to love you ultimately.”
And I was like, oh gosh, this is like the sign of the end times. You know, 2 Timothy 3, we’ll be lovers of self rather than lovers of God. And now you’re able to perpetuate this therapeutic worldview with a chatbot. So people are going to chatbots instead of the place they should go, which is the treasures of the Scripture. We’re finding an alternate in chatbots rather than why spiritual guidance and counsel from people that know the Word and we’re going to it for moral problems. And the listeners of Truth in Love may think like, “no, Dr. Gifford, this is just an objective third-party platform. It’s just presenting facts.”
It gave me an answer on should I divorce my wife? So you tell me if that’s objective neutrality. It also, it said that LGBTQ was not wrong because I asked it, I said, why is LGBTQ plus wrong? And I asked it just like that to see if it would say, well, some believe it’s wrong. Some believe it’s not wrong. And here’s how you could form an opinion. But it didn’t say that. It actually said it’s not wrong. And to say so is perpetuating a, what was the right word? A discriminatory, of course, a discriminatory worldview.
So now what’s happening is we’re going to the secular therapeutic chatbot that’s working with software engineers, collating data and psychiatrists, therapists, counselors are working with these platforms to inform the chatbots, how to respond to things. And it’s giving us moral guidance.
It’s like a secular worldview on steroids, meaning it can get out much quicker. So you used to have to go to a counselor and pay money to get the bad advice that a secular therapeutic counselor would give, you know, it’s like, praise God, at least you had to pay money. That was preventing people from getting the bad counsel altogether.
But now a chatbot can proliferate the secular therapeutic ideology because it’s free. And that’s being couched in the language of, well, we want to help as many people. We want as many people to get access to the mental health care, the “mental health care that they deserve.”
But now as a Christian, we’re thinking, oh goodness, like this is perpetuating a naturalistic secular therapeutic worldview at light speed. And 9.1 million people can be getting bad counsel simultaneously. So now don’t think of it as this neutral therapeutic helper buddy. Think of it as a platform by which the secular therapeutic can perpetuate itself and do so for free. Oh, and one addendum, do so for high schoolers as well. There are platforms alongside of, is an app to give to your high school student where you can have a chatbot therapist. And I was reading an article in the wall street journal where parents had recently moved.
The daughter was taking it really hard. So they got her this platform to help her find a chatbot therapist. And they said, we’re glad she’s able to talk to someone. And I was like, get her a dog. The dog’s not going to give her bad naturalistic advice in the process and make her focus on herself. So this is the era, it’s kind of the wild, wild west right now. I’m sure there will be regulations that come in pretty soon. And right now, this AI therapy, it’s pervasive and it’s captivating a lot of attention.
Dale Johnson: Yeah, I think you’re right. And it plays a lot into just, we think more intellectual information gets us down the road on some of these issues. And we have to be cautious and very careful about this. I think the bigger question for us when we think about believers engaging in this, of course, this is going to be palatable to the world. They’re going to appreciate this idea of having something give them advice. This also plays into the category of, you know, we lack social engagement with different individuals. We lack community, which the church can provide.
But in that, it’s very natural for us now to use a keyboard to interact with people. And now we’re going to find this way we can get advice or therapy in this way. But the biggest question for us as Christians, how do we think as Bible believers about a concept like this? We should be concerned about several things, right? Where are we getting our information? What backdrop are they using to give us this information? Under what authority are they giving us guidance? As you mentioned, these are not simply non-moral categories. It’s stepping into the world of providing moral advice. And how should Christians think about this concept of AI therapy?
Greg Gifford: I had a couple of listeners write in after I had released a couple of episodes through transformed and they tinkered with AI therapist and generative AI and chatbots and so forth. And what they did is they input parameters and they said, answer this like a biblical counselor would, what is depression? And it was really fascinating because it started to come up with pretty close, like 80%. There was another listener that wrote in and I forget the exact nature, but similar in concept where you talk about, Hey, answer this from a biblical perspective or answer this from a sufficiency of Scripture perspective. So first of all, I would say as a Christian who is any level of discerning, all of us want to be discerning. We may not see ourselves as being an expert in discernment, but if any level of discernment, you’re not going to a secular therapeutic, anything for life advice to include a chatbot.
That’s the equivalent of going to the wisdom of the world and saying, please tell me how to run the most important parts of my life. Help me with my soul, help me in parenting, help me with my mood regulations and dysregulations, like help me with all that stuff. The word of God is not only the authority and it is, but it’s the Supreme and better authority. It’s like saying, you know what? I’d really prefer inferior answers that are unhelpful over the superior answers of God’s word.
That’s what we’re saying. So it’s one thing to say the Bible is the boss and it is, but the Bible is actually superior and better. And those that are going to these secular chatbots are, they’re settling. You’re settling. If you’re dabbling in that, you’re settling and you’re perpetuating a faulty understanding and settling for worse understanding in that context.
So I think as a Christian, you’re just saying we’re not tinkering with that. What that will do is help de-platform some of these technologies. And when you vote with your use and with your money, they often go away. And in a good way, we want that to be de-platform and to be reshaped. If you are using it at all, you’re using it as you would Wikipedia or Reddit. For most of you, as you think of Reddit, you don’t base life decisions off of what you just saw on Reddit. It’s like, well, that person from Minnesota said it’s true. So, let me sell my house.
You’re being discerning and you’re vetting those comments through the truth of Scripture. So if you don’t have the acumen to vet them through the truth of Scripture, you might want to stay away from it for a little bit and plus up your biblical knowledge so you can vet things through the truth of scripture for sure. Yet, if you do feel like you’re okay, you’re not, you’re maybe not the greatest in the scripture, but you’re okay. You can be discerning. Then I think you can use generative AI in a discerning way like Wikipedia or Reddit, because you’re then able to say, “well, that doesn’t really match what the Scripture says.” Or it’s like, “Oh yeah, that actually pointed me to a verse. And now I’m going to exposit that verse. And that is going to help me understand the nature of the subject.”
Logos is starting to use AI as well for the purpose of research. So use it for research, use it as a baseline, but it’s never going to be a decision maker. Just write me at ggifford@masters.edu. I’ll send you $8 to go buy a magic eight ball and save you the trouble of making life decisions based off of a secular therapeutic counselor. That just sounds like a great way to sabotage your life or your kid’s life is to let them go to these secular chatbots to learn more about how to make significant worldview and life decisions. So think about it that way. Reddit, Wikipedia, and some, you’re using it that way and you’re vetting what it’s saying with the authority and superiority of the Scripture
Dale Johnson: All right. So, Greg, you’ve given some really good advice, I think, relative to how Christians should think about AI and particularly in this realm of AI therapy or AI counseling. So many things come to mind in the warnings that you gave. And it’s always interesting to me to see how what God has provided in his method in the scripture in terms of his word, intergenerational teaching from older, wiser men and women to younger, wiser men and women, the beauty of the church and the community that we have, several things that you talked about in warning. The Bible actually answers and gives, I think, a better formulation of where this solid advice should come from, how we should live in community with one another. Talk a little bit about the beauty of the church and how it answers and the scriptures answer what people are longing for when they’re typing into a chatbot for advice.
Greg Gifford: I’ve been lonely in my life, just to be candid. I was stationed on the DMZ and that’s right between North and South Korea. I was there about a year and nine months when I was in the army. And honestly, I was lonely a lot because there’s a lot of South Korean soldiers and I couldn’t speak Korean. So it was just basic hello, goodbye type stuff. There were about 60 to 70 US soldiers. And I think out of the, let’s say there’s 70, 68 of them didn’t care about Christ, didn’t want to honor him. They were thinking like, “how do we get off and go drinking?”
So I felt very isolated in that time. And I guess to a certain degree, I say that because I understand how a person could be lonely when you don’t have a strong community, there is a temptation to long for that. So those that are going to be most susceptible to chatbots, chatbot therapy, chatbot companions, decision makers, etc.
I think they’re the ones that are not involved in a God honoring local church. They’re the most susceptible. I mean, just read some of the articles—the free press published some ladies who are dating chatbots. They were almost all in bad relationships. It’s like, well, of course you’re drawn to a chatbot because your boyfriend’s a loser in all fairness. And if I were dating him as a girl, I would be drawn to a chatbot too. You know, like, of course that’s the reality.
So what’s the good offense? The reality is that God has created us in His image as relational beings. That’s part of the impulse of who we are in his image. Where are we to find those relationships? Our local churches. Like that is the place. And when you have that, you’re less drawn for companionship in inferior places. Because you’re satisfied, you’re surrounded by spiritually wise individuals that are speaking the truth into your life and they’re fun and they’re your community. That is the local church.
And when you’re drawn towards an alternative, it probably means, most likely means you don’t have that good local church. So what should you do in the times of loneliness? Really lean into your local church community, something that you have to create. Some of us, we treat it like a treasure hunt, you know, like we found this church and then we discovered true biblical community, but that’s never been my experience.
It’s always that you have to lean in and create community and you have to prioritize those relationships and make time for them and invest in them for them to become truly your family. Otherwise you show up on Sunday and you leave and there’s no real community and family.
So I would say, start with the one another’s and understand that God has made us for relationship. And when you find the one another’s in your local church, you’re not going to be tempted to go to a chat bot. You’re going to be tempted to go there for spiritual guidance and wisdom.
One last nugget on that is, out of the local church often is where the dating relationships and companionship comes. So if you’re in these repeated bad relationships, where are you going for the source of that companionship? And if you’re not connected to a local church, then most likely you’re meeting people in all of the wrong places. So you’re going to meet the bums of this world and then be drawn towards another place for companionship.
So it’s like the local church is the epicenter of God’s plan for your life, the one another’s and just general accountability and encouragement. But then also as you’re moving into those dating relationships, your local church or local churches are part of where you’re going for that companionship as well.
So it all breaks down at your connection to a local church. You’re going to have greater counseling needs if you’re not connected to a local church. So in the end, the local church will thrive and grow. The question is, will we be a part of it? Will we have that privilege to get to be part of a Christ-centered, God-honoring, awesome, fun community where we’re trying to all be like Jesus together at the different seasons of our life?
Dale Johnson: I love it, brother. This is so helpful to think about just what’s out there and not just the fact that there’s a mechanism for people to do these things, to look for advice, but also just helping us to think biblically about why this is not a great idea.
It separates us from genuine community in a way that could be helpful for us as we hear the truth from people who love us directly and can speak into our life. Greg, thanks for your time today. Appreciate it, brother. Thank you.
