Dale Johnson: This week on the podcast, I have with me Dr. Sam Stephens and Dr. Francine Tan, and we’re answering some of your questions. This has become one of my favorite things for us to do: to hear questions that are on your heart and determine ways that we can help distinguish them, whether that be practically or biblically in our thinking. I’m going to pitch a question, and I’m going to give it to you exactly the way that it came in and I want us to just have a little conversation about it. I think these terms are important. Here’s the question, the way it came in: “What are some pros and cons for using the term discipleship rather than the term counseling?” It’s a very simple question in its nature, but there are a lot of different ways to think about this. What are pros and cons in using the term discipleship rather than the term counseling?
Sam Stephens: One thing that comes to my mind, and maybe this would fit into the pro category, is obviously that discipleship communicates the central aim, purpose, and goals of what we’re accomplishing as faithful Christians, and also in the endeavor of soul care and counseling. The term counseling has a lot of baggage since the rise of modern psychology. We definitely have to – and I find myself frequently having to – make sure our counselees understand what counseling is. We do that typically during the first session. Discipleship is obviously a biblical term that’s found in Scripture and speaks about our relationship with Jesus and the general trajectory of our lives. I think that’s one pro: that it more readily speaks to what the Bible talks about and uses language that’s more accessible in the Scriptures than counseling.
Dale Johnson: Let’s stay on the pro train for a second. I think that would be helpful. To be honest, I’ll say I think there are pros to using both terms. I think the concept of counseling, as you mentioned, has baggage. We’ll talk about the cons of that, because there certainly are some cons. But I think the concept of counsel and giving counsel is utterly biblical. It is rooted in who God is, the nature of God, revelation, particularly special revelation, and in the way in which He’s given Himself to us. He is all wise, and He gives counsel that we’re intended to follow. Believers are intended to do that with and for one another, helping to remind each other, spur each other on, and so on. The concept itself, before the modern ideas of counseling became formal, was an absolutely appropriate biblical word. Along with the concept of discipleship. Counsel would be the concept; but I’m providing counsel for what purpose? As you mentioned, Sam, discipleship becomes that purpose for which good counsel is to be given anyway. Good counsel that we receive from the all-wise God, that He gives to us, is for the purpose of something and guiding us towards something: this concept of discipleship, which we know is a biblical concept. Historically, we’ve described counseling in the church, or biblical counseling, as intensive discipleship. I think that’s an appropriate way to describe counsel, as you mentioned. It is further descriptive of why we give counsel, and the type of counsel we give. It’s for the purpose of growing in maturity. What are other pros that you guys can see with these terms? Then maybe we’ll look at some of the cons.
Francine Tan: I’m thinking even about, as you’re saying, the word counsel; counseling is a subset of discipleship. It cuts through any kind of idea of a person-centered therapy, because directed counsel needs to be given. You need to proclaim and speak truth in love. Paul says in Colossians 1 that we proclaim Him, we proclaim Christ, admonishing everyone, teaching everyone with all wisdom that we may present everyone complete in Christ. It’s not this passive stance that you’re sitting there listening. You need to bring to bear and speak truth from the Word of the Lord. Think about Psalm 1. There’s only two types of counsel: the counsel of the righteous or the counsel of the wicked.
Dale Johnson: I think that distinction is super helpful. Another pro, as I think about discipleship and what we’re actually doing in the counseling room – and this has been something that we’ve believed about biblical counseling since its inception – is that we’re aiming at something particular: sanctification. That is a part of the concept of us fulfilling the Great Commission; we are making disciples. The way in which we do that is by offering proper and appropriate counsel. This pro of the term discipleship, I think, is really critical. The way I would distinguish this concept is that the church is obviously the primary place at which this type of soul care should happen. The methods that the Lord has given are in terms of offering counsel but also knowing methodologically what we’re called to be doing, and that is discipleship. A more formal meeting with an individual for the purpose of counseling/discipleship now becomes an appropriate relationship with an individual moving towards the same thing. When we think about the normal process of care that happens within the church, it is directly connected to the concept of doing intensive discipleship. I think about it in this way, Sam, and you can respond as you think about this: for normal processes of care that happen within the local church, a person is probably really struggling in some way. They’re struggling to move in this progressive nature of sanctification. Something has them bound, they’re caught up in some issue, they’ve had a life event that they’re really struggling with, and they need specific special attention. That’s when I think about counseling or discipleship; this intensive discipleship that biblical counseling describes. I think that’s a helpful distinction, but it’s not doing something other than what the church was called to do. I think that’s a really important aspect; we’re not trying, in our formal biblical counseling, to do something other than what the church was always called to do. That’s why I think the word discipleship is really appropriate, especially this intensive discipleship concept, in what we do. Those are some pros. We can now move to some cons in the language, because I do think there are some. Let’s talk about the cons of the language that we use.
Francine Tan: As you said, I think it’s important to guard against a “refer and defer” mentality within the church to those who are “counselors.” In Romans 15:14, Paul says that I am convinced that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, and able to admonish one another. Now, is everyone equally competent? No. Is everyone equally mature in their character and their godliness? No. But it does not mean that only those who are formal biblical counselors are qualified to counsel. It’s one another.
Sam Stephens: I agree 100%. Going back to what you said earlier, Francine, to the idea that all counseling is discipleship, but not all discipleship is counseling, right? I think there is a unique nature to what we’re doing and accomplishing in counseling that does set it off as a bit distinct from, maybe, general discipleship. Although, again, we’re aiming for the same thing. When it comes to both disciple-makers, which we’re all called to be as Christians, and counselors, it’s about spiritual maturity. This is something I think that we need to be talking about more. It’s not about credentialing. This is coming from someone who works for a certifying organization; you heard it here first, ladies and gentlemen. It’s not about credentialing. It’s about spiritual maturity. It’s about faithfulness. It’s about consistency. It’s about killing your sin. It’s about vivifying the Spirit—my little plug for our conference. I think in the credentialing world in which we live, the therapeutic world in which we live, it’s so easy – to what Francine was saying, which is so good – for people to look at counseling as a specialized work, with people that have certain degrees, or a language of counseling, instead of seeing that we all carry a responsibility. Now, are we all going to carry the same load? Probably not. There’s people in different stages in their faithful walk, years of walking with the Lord, knowledge of God and the Scriptures, and those are all really crucial factors. Maybe some people are going to be able to handle lower threshold counseling cases; they’re important but less extreme than other people’s and that’s fine. Ultimately, what are we aiming for? That every faithful Christian in the local church actually has the potential of being a faithful counselor, too. Certifying is great for standardizing certain things, but is that the marker alone? No, it’s not.
Francine Tan: I would also add that God has given you sufficient resources within your local church. Paul says to imitate him as he imitates Christ. Hebrews 13 says to consider the result of leaders’ conduct and to imitate their faith. How do you know who you’re imitating if you don’t see them live that out within the context of your church?
Dale Johnson: Critical stuff. As I think about a con in relation to the word discipleship, I’m certainly not going to downplay the concept. It is thoroughly biblical in the way we think about what we’re supposed to be accomplishing, and all biblical counseling should be accomplishing this concept. I think one of the cons of calling it all discipleship is that nobody out there knows that it’s actually doing the same thing as what the secular world uses in terms of counseling. A con of using that framework is people would do this: they would say, “If I have a clearly spiritual issue, then I’m going to go see Sam, and I’m going to ask Sam to disciple me through this because that’s discipleship. But when I have another type of issue, which is an emotional problem, and I hear what the secular world is saying about that, then I’m going to go out there to get counseling.” The con is that that semantic difference confuses people in some ways; to say that discipleship and spirituality and church things are limited to a small corridor of life. But this stuff out here, with regard to the word counseling, that’s used and done for a different corridor of life. I think that’s one con that is communicated with the language that we use.
Francine Tan: I also would say this is something that Daryl Harrison phrased so helpfully. He says he would ask the counselee or the believer what they hoped God would do for them in their time together. Even with the idea of counseling, it’s almost like the counselor, who’s this expert in something, such as an expert in emotional issues, is now going to help them solve this issue. We need to reframe it to clarify that this is a spirit dependent, God dependent, Word driven work; God alone transforms your heart for biblical change. It’s not the counselor, it’s not the person; we’re just pointing one another to Christ and His word.
Dale Johnson: Well said. Sam, I want to pitch this idea of a con to you regarding the term counseling. What you mentioned a little bit earlier was this sort of movement in the direction of professionalization: being disconnected from the church. As a result, we can see the work that we engage in, where we’re offering counsel to someone, as being disconnected from the church. I think we forget that while the word counsel itself is a thoroughly biblical word, the way it’s been hijacked by the secular world sort of creates this con. The reason is because the way the secular world talks about counseling is very specific. It’s done, to your point Francine, by an expert who has certain knowledge in a particular area; “they’re good at a certain therapy that’s been associated with a certain type of problem, which I happen to have and therefore I need their professional help, and I’m going to pay them to fix me.” That’s a con that I would say is associated with it. Talk a little bit about that history and how the word counseling was really hijacked. When most people hear the term counseling or therapy or something similar, that language communicates something that has been hijacked from the biblical view.
Sam Stephens: Actually, Dale, I see this expressed in the way that people actually inquire into ACBC about resources. They’ll say, “Hey, I’ve got this very specific counseling case; this person has this particular thing and so forth – what resource do you have on this very thin slice?” In one sense, there’s nothing wrong with that question. I’m so glad they’re calling ACBC and that they want a biblical perspective. We get those questions pretty frequently. However, you can’t cover every single particular slice of life or situation that someone may be walking through. They could be as different as the sand on the seashore. What concerns me about those types of questions is that they’re thinking about it from a service-oriented perspective, which I think is the general therapeutic counseling perspective. When we professionalized counseling, we made it a profession. It is a job in the same way that someone’s a plumber, someone’s an electrician, someone’s a counselor. When we’re hanging shingles and we’re leaving the local church and it’s not about Christian ministry, then it becomes what? I’m a service provider. What can I provide you? This goes back to Francine’s point. For most of the clinical websites I go to, whether they be clinically informed biblical counselors or secular therapists, one of the biggest points you’ll see on these websites is the sliding scale, costs of different services provided, and all the litany of different things that they can provide. I think that’s one of the major concerns. We’re of course meeting needs as Christians. We’re meeting the most important need that anyone has: the need for redemption, the need for walking in the light. Discipleship speaks to that. We are slaves to Christ. But this tailored, very nuanced idea of counsel is: “I’m coming with my particular receipt of things that I want covered and you’re here to provide that for me. If I don’t like your counsel, I’ll go shop around for someone else.” That philosophy is very typical. I think it’s not only counterintuitive, but actually spiritually harmful. It’s totally masking over the actual need these people have. I think that’s one concern about that.
Dale Johnson: I think it’s a legitimate concern, certainly in the saturated culture that we have currently. Here’s one final thought as we wrap this up: I want to give a non-hypothetical because these kinds of things happen all the time. David Powlison wrote an article on the psychologized counselee. When is this really important? I think it’s important in our minds, as biblical counselors, when we think about counseling itself. Do we have our understanding of counseling infused with a secular view of counseling? Are we trying to mimic it in some way? I don’t think that’s helpful. I don’t think using the word counseling is terrible because I think it’s a biblical concept; we can’t let the world just steal something that the Word talks so deeply about. It’s most important for the person coming into the counseling room and how they’re thinking about these things. When they’re coming to counseling to see a biblical counselor, it’s important that the counselor has clarity in their own mind on these things. As an ACBC counselor, you need to ensure you have clarity in your own mind regarding what counseling is seeking to accomplish. You also need to realize that when a person comes in to see you and walks into the room, they might not have the exact same thought about what counseling is. That’s another con that you have to really think through and be aware of. That might be a conversation that needs to happen at the beginning to make sure that we understand what it is that they’re after, what it is that they’re seeking, and that we’re on the same page. Those semantics can get confusing. You may start offering biblical counsel and they were expecting something radically different. Those are ways in which I think these are very practical, important conversations. Is there anything you want to add to those ideas?
Same Stephens: More than what we can fit in our podcast. I will say a couple of things related to what you said. I know of some churches that have biblical counseling ministries that refer to what they do as discipleship counseling. I don’t think that’s a bad thing. I think that they’re really taking the true elements of both of those concepts and bringing them together in a very neat way. I think you gave a really good point at the end. For our listeners, those who are committed to biblical counseling, make sure that the counsel you give and the manner by which you give it looks different from the world. I think what we’re seeing right now is a lot of people that say they’re committed to biblical counseling, but they’re practicing in such a way that looks like professional therapy. I think that they’re not aware that 1) they could be very much confusing their client or their counselee, but 2) that they’re opening themselves up to liability. I think the church also needs to be aware because the secular world hates what we’re doing. They hate us not only because we’re stealing people from their profit-making machines – I’m getting real and putting it out there – but also because they don’t love the gospel. They’re not lovers of God. As a biblical counselor, I actually want to make sure that I’m transparent and honest with my counselee about what they’re getting. And prayerfully, the manner by which I give counsel, and obviously the content by which I give it, is going to look very different than how the world looks. And it should.
Francine Tan: I would add that the term counseling is an entry gate. Often, it’s true: for the counselees that I see, this is the last thing that they’re coming to. They’ve tried everything and what is there to lose? They view it as something to just add on. It is really important at the outset to ask and determine what they’re hoping to get out of this. What are they hoping for? Is it sanctification? Is it to be more like Christ? My goal is to help them love Christ more today than they did yesterday. To Sam’s point, we need to make sure that we’re not buying into what the world is doing and view counseling as offering another service. That’s not what it is. God’s ministry has to be done God’s way, according to God’s power, according to God’s divine resources, and not in our own wisdom. According to James 3, there’s only two ways: the wisdom from above, or earthly, unnatural, demonic wisdom.
Dale Johnson: There’s a huge distinction. This was a wonderful question. I love the way that you’re seeing both sides of this and wanting clarity on that. It’s important that we have those distinctions in our mind. We don’t want to just dismiss something because it’s been co-opted by the world. We need to recover the way the Bible describes these things. Wonderful conversation. Thanks for stimulating us with your question. I hope you enjoyed listening to the conversation and we’ll see you again in the future.
