Dale Johnson: This week I’m delighted to have with me on the podcast Brent Osterberg. He has served as pastor at Living Hope Bible Church in Mansfield, Texas since 2015. He has an M.Div. from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and a D.Min. in expository preaching from The Master’s Seminary. He’s been an ACBC certified counselor since 2009 and he serves with the Center for Biblical Counseling and Discipleship in the Dallas/Fort Worth area. He’s been married to Carrie for 21 years and they have three children. Brother, it is so good to have you back on the podcast. Looking forward to our time together today.
Brent Osterberg: Thank you, Dale. I appreciate it.
Dale Johnson: Now we need to start here with: what in the world is this concept of expressive individualism? I think about this a lot because what I’m describing by this term is something that’s a part of the ethos; it’s sort of the air we breathe in the world that we live in, particularly in America. But just for us defining terms, what is expressive individualism?
Brent Osterberg: Yeah, it sounds intimidating, right? But it is, like what you said, kind of the spirit of our age. Carl Trueman has written on this quite a bit in the last few years. In his book, “The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self”, one of the quotes that Carl Trueman gives about expressive individualism that I find helpful is, “in order to be fulfilled, in order to be an authentic person, I need to be able to express outwardly that, which I feel I am inside”. And so, in order for you to be satisfied, in order for you to be a self-actualized kind of person, you need to live out what you feel most strongly on the inside. And so, this self-defines identity, self-protects that identity, and self-promotes that identity at all costs, no matter who you hurt and no matter, the moral nature of what it is you’re expressing.
Dale Johnson: Yeah. Now, what becomes evil is if I oppose that in someone else. Yeah, we want to have free speech in America, right? But now we’re saying, that could be under scrutiny, why? Because if I’m free to say what I think is right and wrong, it might impose something upon somebody else or it might offend somebody’s expressive individualism. As I think about this, you mentioned Carl Trueman. What a brilliant book that you mentioned, “The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self,” as he describes the influence of something that we think about a lot: The influence of secular psychology on the spirit of the age here in America now. He sort of concludes this movement, even going back as far as Freud, moving forward towards now what we know as humanistic psychology. You would probably hear in some of the way you define expressive individualism this idea that comes from Carl Rogers and Abraham Maslow of self-actualization. You can see now the bearing of the fruit in our culture that’s created this spirit of the age that we, as Paul in Colossians 2:8-9, are trying to defend and guard against these empty philosophies and vain deceptions. And so, as we’re influenced by this psychological perspective and the building of the self and so on, what are some of the ways that we see expressive individualism manifested in both—and this is important, I think because it’ll show the influence of the culture on the church—in both the culture and in the church.
Brent Osterberg: Typically, we tend to think of homosexuality and transgenderism as these expressions of what we’re talking about here today. And certainly, we’re going to encounter people in our families, in the culture and perhaps people who are in the church, children have grown up in the church, so we need to address those matters. But I’m struck with the thought that there are more subtle ways. I think we, as biblical counselors, are going to encounter this topic in this spirit that we’re talking about whenever we’re actually doing ministry that seems more typical and more normal, like thinking of spouses calling it quits on their marriage, right? Because they’ve been denying their feelings for too long, they fall out of love, they feel strongly for someone else, or they want to embrace some career path, and the other person is getting in the way of that. And so, they feel like they’ve got to abandon that person in order to be who they truly are meant to be. Or you’ve got things like even parents neglecting their children to pursue some sort of self-actualization. And so, the kids take a backseat, the kids are neglected because of these dreams and these ambitions that a parent has to pursue while they still got you know, life left, right?
Dale Johnson: Or even I would say the intentional delay of children because you think it’s going to, you know, halter your living life to the fullest, the same type of basic idea.
Brent Osterberg: Yeah, I think that’s spot-on. One that I think is a lot more rampant than we probably realize is the fact that there are professing Christians, quietly quitting the church as they pursue fulfillment in other things; quietly moving away from church all together. Whenever I was an associate pastor of Calvary Bible Church, Dan and I used to talk about how when people would begin to start thinking about moving on from our church, we visibly see them kind of move back their seats in the worship center toward the back, and then we wouldn’t see them anymore, and I think that’s what you see people do overtime. Just in general, when it comes to the church, you don’t hear from them so much. You call them and they’re ghosting your calls and your texts. And then, they’ve just given up on church altogether because it’s getting in the way of what they truly want to live for, what they have in terms of satisfaction, and their goals of life.
Dale Johnson: I think that’s so important. One of the other things that I would add in relation to the church is really a hesitation to accept or fall under biblical authority within the church. There’s sort of a hesitation from doing that or saying everything within the church has to be perfect or, “I can’t fall under this leadership.” You see this sort of allergic reaction, if I could call it that, where there’s just a dismissal. And if I can’t express myself the way that I want to, or what I think is too doctrinally appropriate, then I’m going to find myself going somewhere else or I’m going to reject what the elders say or whatever. And you see this consistently. I think what you’re doing is you’re showing that it’s pervasive. It’s not just some cultural movement, but this cultural movement has infected the way that we think in the church. And no, it doesn’t sound as brash and horribly out there as you know, the transgender movement and so on. But we see these things happening in the church through different means that you just described. I think we can probably start to guess, but I want to ask, what are some of the dangers that we see that are associated with this type of expressive Individualism?
Brent Osterberg: Yeah, you mentioned one just a moment ago that I want to spend a little more time talking about. That is the fact that everyone who questions or confronts someone in this way, becomes an enemy. Whatever it is they’re expressing outwardly, that which they feel on the inside, they consider that person now, to be an enemy; it’s cancel culture, right? Samuel James says this: “the ability to curate our reality cripples our capacity to follow the Bible’s commands to live counter-intuitively because the Bible runs contrary to the flesh, God calls us to a new allegiance, not to us, but to Him”. And so, you can imagine when we go online, we’re able to say, “well these people are making me feel bad about my decisions. These people are making me feel shameful about the things I’m choosing to do. So, I’m going to just push you out of my life. I can easily just unfollow you, right now. I don’t have to look you in the face in order to do this.” So, you can curate your reality and that’s a danger because we are called as Christians to lean into church life, right? To live in the community of faith, to obey the one-another-commandments of Scripture, and use our gifts so that we can glorify the Lord together, you know, for common good. That’s a huge danger because we need each other, in terms of God’s plan for us and how we grow and change.
Dale Johnson: You know, that’s so insightful. I think it’s important that we start to pay attention to those types of breaches, if you will of how expressive individualism, how we’re experiencing it, how we’re seeing it in other people. I know, I certainly started to see this much more in the counseling room in identifying how much people have been influenced by the power of thinking, that’s the spirit of the age that we live in. So, I want you to guide us towards some biblical truths, as we encounter somebody in the counseling process who we can tell, they’re just living according to this. What is not something that pricks the conscience for them, right? Because it’s condoned in the culture in which we live, that it’s actually seen as being good and not evil—that we would express ourselves in ways that we think is appropriate, and then we would shame someone who doesn’t want me to express myself that way. Talk about biblical truths that we can use in counseling for someone who seems to be wrapped up in and settled into this type of thinking.
Brent Osterberg: Absolutely. We need to spend more time at the beginning of our counseling process establishing who God is and who we are in relationship to Him. We are image-bearers and therefore, God has created us to reflect Him in this world for His glory. We can only do that as we’re made new in Christ of course, but that determines what we ought to do. So, identity is huge. I think expressive individualism is all about identity, who you truly believe you are. If you believe you’re an image-bearer of God, then you should be living your life not so you can express who you are, but so you can reflect God in what you do, what you say, and your relationships, etc. Thinking about that and thinking about how the cross plays in, we are not our own. In Psalm 119:94 Solomon says, “I am yours”, and 1 Corinthians 6:19-20, “we are not our own because we’ve been bought with a price,” right? So, we need to “glorify God with our bodies,” Paul says. So, this idea that we belong to ourselves is a lie; remembering we belong to God in Christ, and therefore we should live out of that identity. He gets to tell us how to live. He’s also never commanded to do anything that’s bad for us, but only that which is best and most glorifying to Him. So, I think that’s huge, identity. I would recommend the book by Jerry Bridges, Who am I, Identity in Christ. It is a little book, just eight chapters; it is dealing with who we are in Christ, helping people to establish that because lifestyle is always coming out of identity. One thing too that I would add to that is the fact that the person thinks that by living out who they truly think they are on the inside, that they’re going to be most satisfied. But right after Jesus says that “we’re to deny ourselves, pick up our cross and follow Him daily” in Luke 9:24, He says, “whoever would save his life will lose it but whoever loses his life, for my sake will save it”. So, we have to renounce life on our own terms, not embrace it, renounce it. We find who we truly are in Christ, life indeed, life to the fullest with peace, joy, hope in Him. And so, we let Him be our satisfaction. We must find it in Him alone.
Dale Johnson: What you’re describing really is a changing in paradigm. The person walks in, they have this idea and they’re not going to terminate this, right? But many of you who do a lot of counseling, you’re going to recognize what Brent is describing, maybe not under the term expressive individualism, but you’ve been seeing this pop-up consistently. But what we have to remember is exactly the things Brent has been talking about. In Ecclesiastes for example, Solomon describes that, what is the whole duty of man? He says to fear the Lord and to keep his Commandments. You see that’s paradigm shaping that starts to dictate: what is real? What is right? What is true? What is healthy? And so, when a person comes in and they’re trying to live their life aiming at making themselves feel better or living healthy, thinking about expressive individualism and buying into the culture is the pathway toward that. What you’re describing, Brent, is absolutely right. We have to warn and show them through the experiences of their own life, and through what the truth of Scripture says, that this pathway leads to destruction. It’s a deceptive pathway that they’re running down, and so you can pause, reshape that paradigm, and help them to see with great meaning, purpose, and value exactly why God has made them, why He’s created them, and that He’s called them to live according to truth. And I love that phrase that you used, “to reflect the character and nature,” not live according to some sort of cultural identity that we think gives us meaning, value, and purpose but to now live to reflect, the glory of the character of God, which is why we were made. This is a very helpful, honest discussion, Brent, on expressive individualism. Listen, if you haven’t seen it yet, it’s coming to a counseling office near you. It is the spirit of the age in our culture. As you mentioned Carl Trueman did a good job of explaining sort of historically where it’s came from, why it’s been so pervasive for us in the U.S. specifically, and then Brent’s has given us some key factors on how we can counsel in situations just like that. Brent, thank you, for your time. Thank you for working on this topic and alerting us to it.
Brent Osterberg: It’s my pleasure. Thank you.
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