Heath Lambert: This week, we are honored to have as our guest the editorial director at Nine Marks—Jonathan Leeman, who’s going to speak with us about community. We’re glad you’re with us, Jonathan.
Jonathan Leeman: Thank you, I’m grateful to be here.
Heath Lambert: Everybody talks about biblical community, at least. I hear that all the time. We need more community; we need a better community. What does biblical Community actually look like?
Jonathan Leeman: Yeah, great question. Let me answer that both biblically and then practically. Biblically, you want to think about all the different wonderful metaphors scripture gives for the church and what it is. It talks about the church as a family, and I think that means it’s going to look like, there’s going to be a level and an experience of relationship, intimacy, and shared identity. Like we know in a family, the Bible talks about the church as a body, which means there’s a kind of mutual dependence that we have on one another and even the different roles as different parts of the body, so it’s got to look like that somehow. The Bible talks about the church as a temple of the Spirit which means that God especially identifies himself and dwells with these people, just as he had done with the people in the Old Testament. So we are a people marked off and identified with God. Well, what does that look like? You know, the Bible talks about the church as the vine and branch, communicating our dependence on Jesus and his word. If the vine isn’t attached to the branch, the Lord, and his word, we might as well be cut off. So, biblically, it’s going to look like a lot of these different things, right?
Or what does that look like practically? Well, we’re going to gather once a week at least we’re called to do that. We hear primarily from God’s words, and we engage in baptism and the Lord’s supper. Those are family identifying events, family naming events, even with baptism. Hopefully, your church experience is more than just that, if your church experience is nothing more than 60, 90, even, you know, 120 minutes on Sunday. I’m not quite sure how you’re living out that family metaphor, or that sheep in the flock metaphor, or bricks in a building metaphor. Rather our church lives together extend into Sunday afternoon, or Sunday evening, and then Monday morning, Monday night, you know. So, what does that look like in my life? Well, maybe that looks like people are coming over for lunch on Sunday. Maybe it means I’m having breakfast with a guy in an accountability relationship early Monday morning at 6:00 a.m. Maybe it means this couple is coming over Thursday night to do some marital counseling with my wife and myself or something like that. You know, it means I’m taking a vacation with these people. These are the people I love hanging out with. So the church is more than a social club, but it’s not less. So, our church life together needs to fill out those biblical metaphors, and that’s going to look different for different people, in different places, with different seasons of life. But it’s a big vibrant; there’s nothing like it on earth like it sort of picture.
Heath Lambert: That is a beautiful and biblical picture of what community life should look like at least in summary. But I can imagine that we have people who are listening to this podcast or are listening to this podcast and they know people who don’t have that kind of community. They are part of a church. There may be members in a church, but they’re aware that this kind of community that you are describing in biblical categories is lacking. What would you say to somebody who wants to know what to do in a situation like that?
Jonathan Leeman: Well, you know, pastors often make the joke if you ever find a perfect Church, don’t join it, because it won’t be perfect anymore. Look at my church; it isn’t perfect either. We’re growing, were aspiring. Spend time with me and my kids, we’re not a perfect family, but we’re growing together toward maturity, and that’s what our churches should do as well. So, I’d say, if your church isn’t perfect or isn’t even mature in the way you hope, it should be biblical. You know, either you stay, and you work as a change agent in courage and love. Or depending on how bad it is, I mean; I need to hear more about your church. What’s being taught and preached? Are the people bearing one another’s burdens and sorrows? Are they praying with one another? And if there’s none of this going on, you might go to another church. But before I tell you to go to another church, I would really want to lean into what are you doing to love, pray, bear burdens, weep with those who weep, and rejoice with those who rejoice. I think we overestimate what we can see accomplished in a year or two, and we underestimate what we can accomplish in five to ten years. So start loving the people around you like that now, and see how the Lord might use you in the coming years.
Heath Lambert: That’s good. Let me ask you a question. I want to ask about church discipline. Church discipline is when the church would take action against an unrepentant member to remove them from this kind of community that we are talking about. You have written a book about church discipline and how the church protects the name of Jesus, and here you are speaking about biblical community, and some would listen to that and think that those two things are at odds. That you can’t have this close-knit community while also believe that we’re going to take people out of the community when they are caught in unrepentant sin. How do those two things go together, and maybe to ask a little different way, how does church discipline itself cultivate a biblical sense of community?
Jonathan Leeman: Yeah, great question, thank you. Well, first of all, let’s just remember what we’re talking about. We’re talking about a Biblical Community. We’re not talking about a boy scouts community, a Muslim community. We’re not talking about a fraternity house. You can find community in all kinds of places. What’s distinctive about a church community? Well, among other people things, it’s a group of sinners who are helping one another repent of their sins, put their trust in Christ and follow after him. It’s a community where we are forbearing with one another, where love covers a multitude of sins, or speaking words of grace and forgiveness, and mercy to one another. But in that, we’re also helping one another fight for holiness. A church community is a holiness community because we want to look like Jesus. And holiness is the enterprise of seeking to look like Jesus in our life together.
So, church discipline, the way people have talked about it historically, has two elements: formative elements and corrective elements. Think about a math teacher. He/she forms as he/she teaches, and then he/she corrects. So, you teach the class the lesson, then you walk around, and you look at our papers and make sure they’re doing their mathematics. On the life of the church committee, we are doing the same thing. We’re forming and helping to form one another through the teaching ministry, publicly and privately. We’re correcting the mistakes or the errors, things as they show up, and sin in one another’s lives as this happened. Jesus talks about – for instance, in Matthew 18 of objections against you go and show him his fault. You know? Come on, Jesus. You’re not being Christian enough. Well, that’s what Jesus says to do. First Corinthians 5, Paul talks about, you know, man and how he is to respond to his wife. The scandalous sin apparently with his stepmother, and Paul’s, like those who do such things, will not inherit the kingdom of God, right? And, so, he’s calling on the Corinthian church to remove this individual. So, what we’re doing in the life of the church, think, Ephesians 4, we’re building one another, speaking the truth, and building one another, giving words of correction and encouragement. That like a math teacher who is both teacher and correct. So there needs to be a place in your life where you are inviting other people to correct you. Hey, look, part of being a Christian is admitting I’m not the world expert on myself, and I need a community of loving people around me, who I trust, who share the same gospel to correct me when they see me in my sin. So, I’m actually going out and actively seeking that, right? And cultivating a culture where we seek that doesn’t mean that we call out every little error somebody makes. Again, love covers a multitude of sins or bearing with one another. Nonetheless Christian community, a holiness community, I want to look like Jesus community happens when we privately disciple one another and discipline one another was words of encouragement and correction little by little with patience, not giving people more than they are able to receive towards righteousness, justice, holiness, love. That’s the kind of community together we’re trying to build. That’s not just the elder’s job. That’s the whole church’s job. So finally, we need to practice pursuing patience, and church discipline for love’s sake. It’s all about love, love for the individual sinner’s sake, that they might be brought to repentance, and love for the weaker sheep in the flocks. As Paul says, lest a little bit of yeast works through the whole batch of dough. Love for non-Christian neighbors thinks that they night might not be deceived about what Christianity is. Christianity is not to be represented by heretics and hypocrites. We love our non-Christian neighbors by living this, by occasionally correcting life together. And then of course, finally, love for Christ’s sake that we might represent his name rightly, honestly, and with integrity before the world.
