Dale Johnson: I’m so thrilled to have with me today Dr. Keith Evans, a good friend of mine. He is an Associate Professor of Christian Counseling at RTS in Charlotte. He’s been in academia for nine years, teaching at a seminary even prior to his time at RTS Charlotte.
He was a pastor before that for seven years in Lafayette, Indiana, and he is married to Melissa. They have four girls. Keith, it’s so wonderful to get to spend time with you today and get to talk to you. I always enjoy our time together, and we’re going to be talking about this issue of starving our desires. More specifically, we’re going to talk about the topic of fasting ,and man, I am super thrilled to get into this. Welcome to the podcast, brother.
Keith Evans: Thank you so much. Very glad to be here, Dale.
Dale Johnson: Now, as we talk about fasting, some people say, oh man, I don’t know if I want to hear that. I’m going to turn this off today. But honestly, I think this is something that we need to consider more often.
It seems to have lost its meaning, essence, or practice in the modern realm. Maybe we think it’s mystical or some sort of ancient practice, and we don’t hear it much in the modern church. What do you think Scripture seems to place in a much more prominent role than what we see experienced or practiced today?
Keith Evans: So, I think that Scripture sees it as functionally the exclamation point to our prayers. Not that we can manipulate God, not that it’s superstitious in any way, but this is a means that God has given to His people to say, here’s how we can put an emphasis on our prayers.
How much do we need daily bread? We need it so much that if we go without it for a time, we die. And by fasting, we’re saying, Lord, I need you to hear this prayer more than I need my daily bread. Right? It’s like that. Not trying to manipulate Him. Again, in no way. It’s He who has gifted us fasting as a means to say, God, this is earnest and important. I am earnestly seeking you in prayer.
We also see that Scripture consistently, Old Testament, New Testament, speaks to the discipline of fasting. I think it’s fallen out of vogue, though, in the church, because honestly, it’s hard. I see it in dietary trends, health trends. I see it showing up in other places. But as far as a spiritual discipline for the church, I do think this is an area that we need to reclaim, Dale.
Dale Johnson: I agree. And I do think it’s critical for us. You mentioned diets and fads of health. And that is where we hear this term today, right? We rarely hear the concept in the church, especially in terms of a discipline. We hear it in terms of intermittent fasting and different types or styles of fasting, but all driven towards the purpose of physical health.
The Bible has a different aim. And so maybe it’s important that we define, because often when we hear a word, we associate it most closely with how we see it practiced. And if it’s associated in our minds with this health craze, it’s important that we define it biblically. So let’s start there. Talk about defining what this concept means from a biblical perspective.
Keith Evans: Let me backpedal just a hair before I define it, again, biblically. Jesus says, when you fast, right? He expects that we would do this, just like He talks about prayer. When you pray, go into your prayer closet and your Father who sees in secret, right? Or when you fast, He talks about it in parallel fashion.
Also, when He’s challenged, why don’t your disciples fast? And He says, well, you know, the bridegroom’s with them right now. And when the bridegroom is taken away, then my disciples will fast. So there’s this expectation that we will do so. And that this is part and parcel for the church, not just an old thing.
This is something that will continue until the bridegroom returns. And biblically speaking, how it’s defined is primarily to go without food. Sometimes all food, sometimes just delicacies, for instance. In Daniel 10, Daniel refrains from eating the finer foods or having wine in order to humble himself before the Lord.
But we also see the Scriptures talk about abstaining from other things. I’m thinking of 1 Corinthians 7. It doesn’t use the word fasting there, but it does talk about the concept of abstaining from marital intimacy–this good gift of God for a time and by agreement, to devote ourselves to prayer. So we see the concept of fasting, even if we don’t see the term there. Really biblically speaking, it’s to abstain from primarily food or some types of food, but to abstain from something in order to devote ourselves to the Lord in a more focused way, in a more zealous or earnest way.
Dale Johnson: That is so helpful, and it gets us more specifically in the direction of understanding fasting from a biblical perspective.
I want us to talk a little bit about the purposes now, because people might say, well, “I’m not really sure why I should fast.” Okay, Keith, I hear you describing that it’s personal devotion, where maybe a more intense focus on the disciplines the Lord has given us to do.
Talk about some of the biblical purposes that we see for fasting, and we see it both in the Old and New Testament, but those concepts should really shape the way we practice today. So, give us some of the ideas of the purposes behind the concept of fasting.
Keith Evans: Yeah, absolutely. We see mourning and grief as a reason to fast. The Old Testament imagery would be putting on sackcloth and ash, and then in addition to that outward representation, to fast and to seek the Lord, and there’s a humbling of oneself in grief or in mourning, or humbling ourselves over our sin. We see that in the Scriptures as well, that they call for a corporate fast to humble themselves after a corporate sin.
We also see seeking God’s help in crisis or in times where there’s a major decision in front of us, and we need to show, like, Lord, please, we need your attention. We need your love. We need your wisdom. We need your care. We see it with regard to time of intense prayer or intensifying our prayer, like I talked about at the beginning, like the exclamation point to our prayer.
We also see it for mortifying our natural desires. If I can say no to eating food, which, again, that’s kind of important, it’s kind of important that I would eat pretty regularly, but to say no to that natural craving, if I can say no to that, which is, like, actually good and a good gift of the Lord, can I not say no to my other cravings—other cravings that are not good, right? So that would be another reason for fasting, is mortifying the flesh.
All of these things, again, should be shaping our prayer and our focus on God. This isn’t an end in itself. That’s one of the things that you see in modern fast, it’s like, well, it’s for health purposes or whatever. But this is really a spiritual discipline, and so our aim should always be unto the Lord, not just, “well, I didn’t eat today and didn’t do much, I don’t know why that’s a spiritual discipline.”
Dale Johnson: I love the way you’re describing it, because it is helpful to understand it conceptually. It’s helpful to understand some of the purposes that the Lord gives in starving the cravings that we have.
And, again, I love the way that you described it. It’s not just about squelching the cravings of hunger, but other cravings that come along with it that would become a distraction for us as we seek the Lord, because fasting is really an opportunity for us to seek the Lord, to seek the will of the Lord, to seek His provision, to seek His kindness toward us. The expectation, though, is not when you’re feeling really spiritual, Keith, you should fast, right? The expectation, at least the passage that you quoted earlier from Jesus, He says when you fast, there’s an expectation that that’s going to happen in the normal process of the life of a Christian.
Describe that concept and its role in discipleship, and as you do that, what I want us to think of is how you describe the purposes of fasting, and as you describe the purposes of fasting, how useful it can be in this process of discipleship. Describe how those things can shape our understanding.
Keith Evans: Fasting is not to be as regular as prayer, or else we would all be dead, right? To pray without ceasing, and if we fasted without ceasing, we wouldn’t last very long. So, this is a more occasional discipline, and because it’s a more occasional spiritual discipline, it’s kind of a forgotten discipline.
Also, it’s hard, like it’s not really pleasant to go without a meal. It’s rather nice to have three squares or whatever the case may be, and so it does require discipline. It requires effort, and again, it’s just not in the modern kind of concept of, I’d say, the average churchgoer, and that’s not a fault of the average churchgoer. I’m just saying it’s just not in our common thinking, but the biblical expectation of it that this should be common, like what role this plays in discipleship is that it should be a normal part of our lives to deny ourselves and to look unto the Lord Jesus Christ. I know that might sound rather simplistic or basic or something, but it makes it easier to experience seasons of suffering or discomfort or difficulty in a culture, let’s be honest, in a culture that really loves comfort and ease. And if this is supposed to be a normal expectation of the disciple, well, doesn’t it brace us as well for other difficulties and discomforts?
And again, denying ourselves so that I’m not laying my hand to sin is kind of pleasing, and that’s another comfort of this life, but if I’m denying myself in these other ways of discipline, it’s much easier to deny ourselves with regard to sin.
Dale Johnson: Now, as you’re describing the usefulness in a disciple’s life, if we think about biblical counseling in terms of intense discipleship, which I would certainly agree that that’s a proper phrasing or framing of the concept of biblical counseling is intensive discipleship, then it shouldn’t be strange for us to think, you know what – this might be a useful tool for us, even in the counseling room, and certainly personally, right?
I think that goes without saying is what you said so far, but even useful in the counseling room, and one of the ways that I think it could be very helpful is when we talk about starving out the flesh, right? How do we go about starving out the flesh, utilizing something like fasting? Because it seems to work in a very specific and unique way as prescribed in Scripture.
Keith Evans: Fasting is actually something I assign in counseling. I don’t mean all the time. I mean, occasionally that there are occasions like life-dominating sins, like we really need the Lord to hear and deliver because I mean, all counseling is miraculous in the sense that we can’t change lives. It’s the Lord who changes lives and we need the Lord to show up, right? The Lord needs to work or else we will not be changed.
But you know what I mean, as far as there are times of greater urgency. There are times of, no, let’s get serious here. This is time for more disciplined, diligent discipleship.
So, I will call on my counselee in those occasions, would you consider fasting? And I very much try not to be a Pharisee in my whole life. I especially try not to be a Pharisee in counseling in the sense that I don’t assign something to somebody that I myself will not do. I don’t want to be laying burdens upon people that I myself will not lift, right? That’s the description of the Pharisees.
And so, if I call on my counselee like, hey, this Thursday, would you be willing to, let’s just set aside one meal. Would you be willing to set aside–let’s just not eat lunch together. Let’s start small, not like let’s fast for 40 days or something. “Let’s set aside one meal and I’m going to set aside that meal with you. I’m going to join you in this fast.
And how long do you normally eat a meal? Maybe you have an hour lunch break, but you probably don’t eat for that full hour. You probably eat for 15 to 20 minutes. Would you be willing to set aside that 15 to 20 minutes for prayer, for Scripture reading, and be particularly praying for deliverance from this that you’re facing?
I’m going to join you in that. And then every time you have a hunger pang from skipping that meal, would you use that as a prompt to just continue to pray for deliverance? And I hope you see in kind of some of those particulars of what I’m assigning or asking the counselee to do, I’m seeking to train this type of discipleship and then also joining in with them in that process. So that’s one of the ways I envision that we can use fasting in counseling.
Dale Johnson: I love it. And I think it’s so helpful as we’re using, you know, prescriptive methods that the Lord gives to accomplish the work that He does in our hearts.
And I love the way that you described this, Keith, and this is a wonderful, helpful reminder of the beauty of Scripture in the tools that the Lord gives us to utilize, to focus our hearts to be able to grow in holiness as we seek Him in the process. Brother, thanks for reminding us of this wonderful discipline. May it be a prompt for us to study this even further and put it into practice more.
Keith Evans: Thank you so much, Dale.