Dale Johnson: This week on the podcast, I have with me Eric Abrasor. He is married to Danica. They have five kids, all boys. And Eric has served with Reaching and Teaching Ministries in Cordoba, Argentina for the last seven years. He’s one of the pastors at Iglesia Crecir, academic director and professor at William Carey Seminary, and he’s one of our Spanish-speaking Fellows here at ACBC. He’s finishing up his PhD in biblical counseling here at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. Eric, welcome to the podcast.
Eric Abisror: Thanks, Dale. Thanks for having me.
Dale Johnson: Yeah, always good to catch up. I’m really looking forward to our topic today and just paying attention, going back to some basic fundamentals in how we think about biblical counseling and the means that God uses consistently to encourage our hearts and to change us, actually.
I want us to talk about [the church] as a foundation. It’s certainly not ACBC—as a parachurch organization, our goal is to encourage churches in the work that they are called to do. [The church] is the Lord’s plan in the way in which they minister the Word of God. I want you to talk a little bit about the importance of a Word-centered church, the importance of finding a place at which we have the Word as the central point, both in public and private ministry. And then, how that Word, that ministry of the Word at a church, relates to biblical counseling.
Eric Abisror: That’s a good question. Obviously, when we’re talking about biblical counseling, there’s a few things to keep in mind. First, it’s biblical, and second, it’s obviously aimed towards sanctification and towards being mature in Christ.
When we’re talking about the means of grace, we obviously need to really think about having a Word-centered church because that’s where it all starts. We start with the fundamental principle that the Word is powerful. The Word is used by the Spirit to accomplish salvation. It’s powerful for salvation, to bring about faith. It’s used, John 17, to sanctify believers, and it also illuminates us, Psalm 119.
So, when we think about having a Word-centered church and the connection that it has to the means of grace—and we’ll talk about what that is in just a minute, but we need to really remember that everything we do in the church, to some extent, is obviously meant to communicate the Word of God, to nurture our souls.
We want to make sure that we understand the biblical counseling in the context of a Word-centered church where communion is rightfully practiced. Where we are watching baptisms. Where we are praying, and where we are reading the Word. Where we are preaching the Word. And all of those ministries are meant to communicate the Word.
They’re meant to help us see the gospel. You know, when we take communion, just like we did yesterday in our church here in Cordoba, that is a picture to us of the gospel. We’re literally, in some ways, tasting what it is, right? So, we have to understand that biblical counseling starts in the context of the local church because the church is communicating the Word in all of its ministries to us.
You know, we can go back to the very beginnings of the biblical counseling, and that’s always been one of the foundational principles, is that biblical counseling is a ministry of the local church. You know, one author said, counseling must never be taught or thought of as a weekly hour of magic or an independent ministry conducted aside from the church.
And then he says, preaching, teaching, evangelism, discipleship, and counseling are all integral parts that make up effective biblical ministry. The local church is the instrument Christ ordained to help believers grow into His likeness.
Dale Johnson: So, there you have it. Yeah, I love it. I think that’s such a critical component that it seems we’re seeing some folks distance themselves from the local church in a “biblical counseling ministry,” but I think that’s to the detriment.
And the things that you’re describing are so significant that there are still many of our training centers that if they’re counseling someone who’s from outside of their particular local church, and maybe it’s at a place where it’s not the most solid church in the world, and they know that the people aren’t getting solid ministry of the Word.
One of the requirements that they have—and I’m not saying you have to do this, but just giving an example of how important the centrality of the local church is— from some of these training centers is to say, “you know what, while you’re engaged in counseling here, you should come to one service per week at our church, so that you can hear the Word preached. You can see fellowship happening. You can see how the ministry of the Word is intended to be done.”
And with that, the goal is we’re wanting to saturate this person with the Word, and it’s more important than just the hour that you’re with somebody in a week in the counseling room. That’s significant, but what we’re doing is we’re trying to encourage the whole use of the Word through the means that God has given.
Now, we talked about this concept, means of grace. I want to back that up a little bit, and I want you to give this concept, the means of grace, a definition. What in the world are we talking about when we talk about this concept, the means of grace?
Eric Abisror: Yeah, so at the most basic level, the means of grace are instruments or mechanisms that God has chosen to use to either bring about faith in our life or strengthen faith in His people.
You know, we can think about maybe some of the confessions or catechisms. You know, 1689, for example says that “the grace of faith is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word, by which also and by the administration of baptism in the Lord’s Supper, prayer, and other means appointed of God, it is increased and strengthened. So, there you have it.
God is using these means of baptism, prayer, and the preaching of the Word to strengthen the faith of His children. The Westminster Short Catechism, says something similar, that “the outward ordinary means of grace, whereby Christ communicates to us the benefits of redemption, are His ordinances, especially the Word, the sacraments, and prayer, and all of which are made effectual to the elect for salvation.”
So, at the very basic level, we’re just talking about means that God is using in the church to bring about faith in His children. Some have, you know, obviously thought historically that the means of grace are specifically the Word, the preaching of the Word, the prayer, or prayer in our life, and in sacraments, or the ordinances. Other systematics, you know, try to broaden that out a little bit more to include things like worship, giving, Christian fellowship, discipleship, and things like church discipline, even.
That’s what we’re talking about. You know, we’re thinking about Romans 10:14, “how then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in Him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone,” what? “Preaching? “There you have it. It’s the Word of God that is being used as a means of grace. So, it’s a mechanism. It’s a channel of grace to His children.
Dale Johnson: And these things are significant, and I want to make sure that we circle back around, because what it boils down to is this element of faith, walking by faith. We were made to walk by faith. Even Romans 10, what you mentioned; I think often of Colossians 2:6, “in the same way in which you receive the Lord Jesus, so walk in Him,” he says.
So, we’re told to walk by faith. That’s a significance. So when you think about the significance of the means of grace in our life, I want you to give me some examples or help us to understand how significant these concepts are for us walking, in terms of things like correction, or comfort, or conviction, right? So the means of grace is accomplishing something in our life. Describe its significance, that we give ourselves to these things on a consistent and regular basis.
Eric Abisror: You’re spot on there when you say that these are things that we do by faith. These are not magical things that we do, and all of a sudden, God will just give us grace. You know, it’s something that we are doing by faith in submission to the Word of God in our life.
We can think about, obviously, you know, what is the Word of God accomplishing in our life? 2 Timothy chapter 4:2. I mean, it’s powerful to do something, to teach us, to rebuke us, to comfort us. And so often, we have to understand that the Lord is using different ways to communicate that Word to us, right?
He’s using a brother or sister in Christ to come alongside us and minister that Word to us in a time of need. Or maybe we are suffering, or maybe those who we are counseling are suffering, and the Word is going to be ministered to their soul in a time of need through the ministry of music, worship. You know, they’re going to hear a song that they need to hear at that perfect moment, and the Lord is going to minister to their soul in that specific way.
Dale Johnson: Yeah, that’s helpful. Even as you’re describing music as a part of that, music is we’re singing the Word. We’re singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs to one another for our encouragement, as Colossians 3 tells us. I’m just thinking of the different ways in which the Lord uses the ministry of singing the Word to encourage us. It’s one of the ways that we can hide God’s Word in our hearts, one of the ways that we remember on Monday and Tuesday and Wednesday that the beautiful truths of Scripture that apply to us, that we’re anchored to.
Let’s talk about this in more particular terms, Eric. When we think about doctrines that the Lord has given to us—doctrine of justification, for example—these things should inform our understanding of how God works specifically in our life. I want you to take this concept of justification and demonstrate how this is truly a means of grace in our heart and our life, especially as it relates to counseling and counseling conversations.
Eric Abisror: That’s a really good question, and I think it’s a concept maybe theologically that we understand, but I think in practice we often forget about what’s the difference between justification and sanctification. I was even teaching our young adults in our church a couple days ago. We have to remember the difference between justification and sanctification.
And I think maybe that’s one of the reasons why we kind of shy away from this idea of means of grace. Because we’ve heard it so often in the context of the Catholic Church, and in their understanding, it serves as a more justifying means. It kind of prepares you for salvation as opposed to an instrument that is being used to sanctify us.
And so, we really do have to remember that these means—they are used to strengthen our faith, but they are not something that justifies us. They don’t justify us in the sense that, you know, if we take the Lord’s Supper a certain amount of times, then we’ll be fit for salvation. Or that somehow God will save us, and so we just have to remember that difference—that, yeah, God has justified us through the powerful work of Christ, His resurrection, and He has declared us righteous before His eyes.
And there’s nothing that can change that declaration, but then begins that process of sanctification in our life, and God obviously is using certain ways to draw us closer to Himself. I love how Jonathan Edwards, I have a quote here, and he says, “once we’re justified, we are constantly seeking to kind of be more like Christ.” And he says that “we need to endeavor to promote spiritual appetites by laying yourself in the way of allurement,” right?
So, we’re not going to be able to force Christ’s hand. We’re not going to be able to, but we can certainly put ourselves in—as believers that have been rightfully declared righteous before Christ—in the way of allurement, those areas that God uses to strengthen us and strengthen our faith.
Dale Johnson: Yeah, I love it. And when we think about the usefulness of the Word and the ministry of the Word—once we have been justified, the Scripture, the Bible makes very clear, is our life is to be lived outward now in gratitude. Gratitude for the work that the Lord has done, and the Scripture continually affirms that work.
It helps us to look back appropriately to see the work that God has done, and then look forward. One of the ways that we remember is through the Lord’s Supper. And you mentioned a few of the means of grace. One of those that you talked about was what we would call, some may call sacrament—what we would call an ordinance of the church, the Lord’s Supper.
Sometimes we may think about this as just a ritualistic taking of the means at the Lord’s table, but it’s so much more than that. We’re told to remember and then proclaim his death until he comes, and this is significant as a means of grace in the way in which our souls are cared for.
I love the way that you’re shaping some of these concepts to show that these doctrines, these quote-unquote rituals that we do in the church, are not just outward things. They’re intended to genuinely be a caring of our souls. Talk about the relationship between something like the Lord’s Supper and caring for people’s souls, as much as we have an opportunity to do that.
Eric Abisror: Yeah, I don’t know if we always think about the idea of the Lord’s Supper and biblical counseling. But really, when we think about biblical counseling, what are we trying to do? We’re trying to—like what you said—care for people. We’re trying to care for their souls in a time of need.
And we are always saying in biblical counseling that all the ministries of the local church are meant to do just that, to care for our souls. So let’s take, for example, the Lord’s Supper. That is something that is meant to nourish us in our faith. So I have three things in mind. Maybe we can talk about the Lord’s Supper and how it kind of promotes similar goals that biblical counseling promotes.
So, the first is just nourishment, right? So John Owen said there is in the ordinance of the Lord’s Supper and a special and peculiar communion with Christ in his body and blood to be obtained. One reason why we so little value the ordinance and profit so little by it may be because we understand so little of the nature of that special communion with Christ, which we have therein.
And I think we obviously, rightfully so, want to avoid a doctrine that says, you know, the elements are literally becoming the body of Christ, the blood of Christ. But we don’t want to go so far as to forget that there is a special kind of communion that I think is taking place in the Lord’s Supper. And that is a promise that we have. So in that sense, the Lord’s Supper can promote nourishment.
I think the Lord’s Supper can also be convicting, right? So every time that we are taking the Lord’s Supper as an ordinance, as a sacrament, that is an opportunity for us to evaluate our faith. It’s an opportunity for the partaking of the Lord’s Supper or the absence of it to convict us of sin. I think even as elders, sometimes we have the responsibility to come alongside members and say, you know, brother, sister, there’s unrepentant sin in your life, and you should not partake of the Lord’s Supper. And I, you know, we had to do that not too long ago. And I think that can be used, right, as a means of grace in that person’s life as a way of conviction.
And then you also think about the fact that it’s hope-giving. Taking the Lord’s Supper can be so hope-giving. You know, we might think about somebody that has terminal cancer and knows that they have little time left. How hope-giving, Dale, is it for them to hear the words that I tell you, “I will not drink again of this fruit, this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
So they are taking the Lord’s Supper, and they’re remembering those words, and they have future hope now. And they need that. We all need that. So there you have it. There’s a practical way that we can see the Lord’s Supper as a means of grace to somebody.
Dale Johnson: I love it. And this is one of the ways that we can encourage one another in this. But let’s even go a step further, Eric, because I think this is really important. As we think about specifically as counselors, I always teach my students a couple of things when they encounter, you know, a situation—what I call a pastoral care concern.
I want them to be thinking about several things. And, you know, I want them to be thinking about the presenting issue. I want them to be thinking about their perspective on that. What are they interpreting is going on? One of the elements that I get them to think of is how can the church be helpful in this? How can the church be helpful in this particular issue that this individual is facing?
Because I want them to have a church perspective, because the church really is God’s primary means of care, the work of the church. So, let’s bring this in the counseling room when we think about homework, right? So my students all the time are asking me, you know, how do I develop homework? How do I think about homework?
Well, one of the ways is to think about how we incorporate the usefulness of the church, the means of grace that you’re describing. So help us to understand how do we incorporate some of these concepts and means of grace when assigning counseling homework, how can we can turn people’s attention to the Word, to the work of the church, the ministry of the church? Talk about that a little bit.
Eric Abisror: That’s really good. So, simple ways. It’s nothing magical here. But I think, you know, for one example is somebody that I was counseling just last week, we heard a powerful sermon from Hebrews 1. And I had prepared something for my time with this brother that I was discipling and counseling. But I changed it based on the sermon that we heard, because I thought, you know, he was there, I was there, and we need to review that.
So, it’s just a practical way just to go back and say, “all right, you heard the sermon, you know, let’s look at this a little bit more detailed. And look at how does this passage and how does Hebrews 1, the supremacy of Christ, Him creating all things, and him being better than even the angels—Well, how does that now practically apply to your life? And maybe some of the idols that you’re struggling with where you are tempted to say, ‘well, this is better than Christ, this is better than Christ…’”
And you know, so we went through it. “Well, no, Christ is better than even the angels, and He is far better than any idol that you might have.” So that’s one thing—just taking the sermon that you heard from Sunday. And again, that’s another reason why I think biblical counseling is best in the context of the local church where you’re both participating.
Maybe just another thing is encouraging this person to read the passage before they go to church. Maybe one of the homework assignments that I’m giving, I know it’s simple, but they just need to take notes of the sermon. And then after they need to reflect on that and think, think how does this sermon apply specifically to whatever struggles and that they have in their life?
Maybe even just thinking through the context of Christian fellowship. One of the things that I have seen is people that they struggle to really integrate themselves into the corporate body of the church and they’re missing out on the blessing of that. And so one thing that I’ll just say is meet one new person this week.
You can even go through some questions with them on what you might ask that person, just to kind of heling them along.
But maybe music? You know, that’s something that can be a blessing to us, maybe getting the songs beforehand and just singing those songs even before the worship service. So, those are some things. I don’t know if you have any other good ideas.
Dale Johnson: I may add one. I’m just thinking I use this quite a bit—thinking about people that you can serve. So if I’m talking to a counselee, I may think of several different ways that the church is serving together or opportunities where an individual can go and serve. And to me, that’s just one of the most helpful ways for a person immediately to think about someone else more than they think about themselves.
You know, accomplishing Philippians 2. And is there, you know, an older lady in your church who needs their yard mowed or something like that? I mean, there’s basic practical things that individuals can do to say, you know what, I’m going to have to take some time out of my week to think about somebody else and go serve them in the church.
But yeah, I think there are all kinds of ways that we can do that. And you’re helpful in some of those.
Eric Abisror: So, to follow up on what you just said, that is one assignment that I will sometimes give to people that I’m discipling, counseling, as is even Stuart Scott’s book, 31 Ways to Be an “one another” Christian [1]. I’ll take that book, very practical. And I’ll just say, “alright, this week, you need to go through two of those one and others. And we’re going to come back next week and think through how did you accomplish those one another tasks in your life?”
Dale Johnson: That’s really good. That’s good Yeah, because then you’re taking Scripture and you’re making it practical. You’re making it real life with the real people sitting before them and how they start practicing this out in life.
You know, one of the dangers, Eric, that I see really constantly around us is an unintended consequence. I think you could be guilty of this. I could be guilty of this. Lots of people are, and especially in our professionalized world where we start thinking about counseling ministry, you know, we want to be as excellent as possible.
And it can become this sort of specialized thing in the church that, you know, ‘only those people have been trained in this particular way can really be super helpful in this one-on-one discipleship.’ And I don’t mean to neglect the idea of skill and getting better at certain things, but we also don’t want to, as an unintended consequence, create this over-specialized, professionalized mentality about counseling. And sometimes we do that.
And I think what happens is we start separating the value of church life and the genuine doctrines the Lord has given us from what life is really all about. And, you know, counseling is this sort of subset that we do, and doctrine is over here for religious life. And life is not intended biblically to be lived like that.
So, talk a little bit about this unintended consequence of where we might have a tendency to overemphasize or specialize or professionalize this concept of counseling in the church and how, you know, us remembering the beauty of the means of grace can really help prevent that concept.
Eric Abisror: I’m going to give a little shout-out to your book where you talk about the church as a culture of care [2]. Excellent book. And I think one of the sections that was most helpful for me was thinking about the difference between preventative care and corrective.
What you were trying to talk about in that point is, you know, so often we wait until it gets to corrective care or intensive care. And we want to use these means of grace as a preventative kind of care in people’s lives.
And so, I think that’s one thing that we need to keep in mind is making sure that we’re integrating people into the body of Christ, which serves as a preventative measure for people.
God is, again, strengthening their faith and using that. And I think of, I think it’s Titus. Titus 2 talks about how the grace of God has appeared to us, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, godly lives in the present age. And there you have it. That’s one of the goals that we have in biblical counseling.
And so, we ask, well, where does that grace come from? And I would argue that one of the channels is through the means of grace. I think another thing that we can think about is that it lifts the burden, you know, thinking about the entire ministry of the church and the care of souls, it lifts the burden off of one person.
And I think that’s especially discouraging for so many of our counselors is they feel the weight of this person and their struggle with this sin or their deep suffering. And rightfully, you know, we want to bear one another’s burdens. But I think that the entire ministry of the church, whether it’s the Lord’s Supper, baptism, the hearing, the preaching of the Word, communion with the saints, all of that is meant to care for their souls. And it lifts the burden off of that one person. And now we have the entire church to care for this person.
Dale Johnson: I love that because I think it’s so helpful to think about the beauty and depth of the way the word is shaped and how God is using the church to accomplish all sides of that in the ways in which we think about caring. And that caring shouldn’t just happen when there’s a problem that arises.
Caring should be something that’s happening as we’re progressively being conformed to the image of Christ. And that happens both in preventative and corrective ways. It’s sort of dealing with the issues as they come versus waiting until this massive bonfire erupts in a person’s life, and now we’re trying to put this thing out. I think that’s helpful.
One final thing that I think would be helpful for us to think about—there are opportunity costs, Eric, when we think about caring and the way we approach counseling, the methodologies that we choose to use, and seeing the beauty of the church in the ways that you’ve described it.
I think there is a deference, either in choosing to be allured by secular methods or seeing the beauty of the means of grace as you’ve described it. And this is God’s design for how we care for our souls, both in times of sin and suffering, both in times where correction needs to happen, where comfort needs to occur.
And we see the beauty of Scripture play out like that in the lives of people who are part of the church. So, talk a little bit about how us raising the value of the normal operations of the church and the way in which God ministers His Word through different means—to care, comfort, correct, and so on, really becomes a helpful discerning barrier against what secular methodology is trying to imitate. They’re trying to imitate what God has provided in this church. So, talk about how we can stand against, if you will, some of the current flood of secular methods.
Eric Abisror: I mean, we definitely live in a world of pragmatism. You know, we want whatever works, and we typically want whatever works. And if it works faster than better. And we tend to kind of easily grasp onto these new methodologies that promise fixes in our life.
You know, they explain problems so well, and they have the promise of healing, and it’s fast. You know, one session of whatever kind of therapy will help you. And I was just thinking about this promise that God promises to bless His people, not through that, but through the means of grace. Through the simple acts of taking the Lord’s Supper, watching somebody be baptized, listening to the Word. And it’s ordinary.
It’s not flashy. It’s not specialized. It’s very simple. It takes time. But that’s what the Lord promises to bless and to grow His people through—through those simple acts of service.
And it’s interesting that, you know, we’re talking about this because a lot of times, and I remember reading a secular therapy book, and at the very end, they were talking about, well, how can we solve these problems that we have
And I think the context was trauma and one of the things that the author was saying was the importance of music, the importance of friendship, and the importance of serving others. And I thought, huh, that’s what the church does. I mean, they’re just affirming the fact that the church works. The church is the means of grace.
We listen to music in church, and God changes us through that. So anyhow, I was just struck by the fact that in our culture, we want quick fixes. And in God’s program of changing lives, He uses ordinary means to change us into the image of Christ. And that is a glorious truth, brother.
Dale Johnson: Yeah, that’s 100%. And when we lose sight, we can lose this in two ways. We can lose it first by thinking that what makes a person most healthy is the conforming to the image of Christ. That’s number one. And so when we lose sight of what you’ve argued, that sanctification really is the goal. When we lose sight of that, we don’t see the beauty of the work of the church. We don’t see the beauty of the ministry of the word. We don’t see what God accomplishes, in patience, as we wait on Him to do a work in a person’s life.
The second thing is, I think what you addressed in this last question, is the allurement of pragmatism—the allurement of wanting something now. We’ve got to fix this part because we define the problem in a different way. And sanctification, that’s helpful in a religious sense, but this issue is something different.
And so, we begin to be allured by these secular methodologies and the call of pragmatism and feeling like there’s something in our flesh that we can control or manipulate in a person’s heart and life that really draws us to that.
So again, we take our eyes off of the aim, which is sanctification, and therefore we take our eyes off the means, which is God’s means of grace through the ministry of the Word, which He’s given to the church to accomplish. Well said, and I love the way that you’re putting all this together.
It’s very, very helpful for us to just come back to some of these basics, to remind ourselves of what’s the foundation and what are the opportunity costs that we’re giving up when we start to—not intentionally, again, this is an unintended consequence— little by little downplay, dismiss, dilute the value of what God has given in the ministry of the Word in the church. Eric, thanks for helping us think through this.
Eric Abisror: Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks, Dale.