Heath Lambert: We are in the month of February, and we are just a little bit out from Valentine’s Day. People all across the country, all across the world are thinking about romance —they’re thinking about dating, and spending time with that special someone, whether it is a husband, a wife, a boyfriend, or a girlfriend. This week on the podcast, we want to talk about those kinds of romantic relationships that exist before marriage and the dating realm and engagement realm.
Our guest on the podcast this week is Sean Perron. Sean is the chief of staff of the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors. He is also the author of the forthcoming book from P&R called Letters to a Romantic. It’s actually two books. The first book is Letters to a Romantic: On Dating [1] and the second book is Letters to a Romantic: On Engagement. [2] He co-authored that book with Spencer Harmon. Sean is also going to be the speaker at the ACBC Pre-Conference called Crafting a Covenant where we’re going to seek to provide counsel to pastors and young people about how to help people in this season of dating and engagement. That’s going to be on October 2nd in Jacksonville, Florida.
As Sean is joining us this week, we want to talk about the issue of romance in the dating relationship. What we really want to focus on is, how far is too far? How much physical affection is too much in that kind of relationship? And there are really just a few options. There is no physical affection. There is very mild physical affection —which would be something like hand-holding. Then there would be the option of adding to hand-holding, kissing. Beyond that, there would be the option of what some people have called heavy petting or making out. Then after that, we’re into very intimate, obviously sexual displays of physical affection. Those seem to be the options. Sean, help us understand —how far is too far, and where should believing people who want to honor the Lord in their dating relationship draw the line on that continuum?
Sean Perron: If we’re thinking about it biblically, God cares not only about what we might do with our hands or our lips or our actions, but He cares about the heart. So the question is actually kind of the wrong question. Instead of how far is too far, we should be thinking about what would be the way I could honor my boyfriend or girlfriend to the glory of God in a pure way. And I think when we reframe it that way, we’re thinking in terms of, how would I treat a sibling? 1 Timothy 5:2 says treat younger sisters in absolute purity, or all purity. And if we’re thinking, in terms of the Bible, as I read it, I see two categories. There’s brother/sister, and then, there’s spouse —brothers or sisters who become a spouse. And, as I read Scripture, I only see that the Bible talks about any type of romantic, physical affection taking place between a husband and wife.
So, I would want to say we should not ask how far is too far, but we would want to back that up and say anything that I would be uncomfortable doing with a brother or sister —which would be a brother and sister in Christ who I am in a real relationship with— then I wouldn’t do that physically with them and I would save that and reserve it for marriage.
Heath Lambert: So, on the continuum that I just portrayed, it sounds like you’re saying, you want to draw the line at any kind of romantic physical affection. You want to say, no romantic physical affection for persons who are dating.
Sean Perron: Yes, and I’m getting that from other texts as well. Ephesians 5 where it talks about husbands and wives and it portrays Christ and the church. It says, “Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her, that He might sanctify her. Having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that He might present the church to Himself in splendor without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way, husbands should love their wives.” So if dating is for the purpose of pursuing, marriage or engagement going towards marriage, I think we should say we don’t want to spot, we don’t want to blemish, we don’t want to wrinkle, we don’t want anything that would be outside the bounds of purity that we would do to a sibling. And so I think all romantic affection should be saved for marriage.
Heath Lambert: So we have thousands of people that listen to this podcast and you just lost a whole big bunch of them. So many people are going to hear you say that and they are going to say that is legalistic, that is moralistic. They’re going to say, it’s just a kiss. I love this person and they are going to have a real hard time with what you just said. So for the person who is still listening out there and giving you a few more minutes —you’ve got a chance to persuade them that this really isn’t legalistic, or moralistic and it’s not just a kiss. What’s the case?
Sean Perron: So the Bible doesn’t say, “thou shalt not touch lips”. The Bible is concerned with the heart and then all the actions and things that flow out of the heart. What I would say would be a couple of things. One for anyone who’s saying, hey, it’s just a kiss. I don’t think anyone actually believes that and God doesn’t think that either and that’s evidence for a couple of reasons. For instance, kissing communicates something. We don’t kiss just randomly. It’s not just an act of randomness. We kiss to communicate something. Verses that would automatically and obviously tell us would be Psalm 2, “Kiss the Son, lest He be angry with you, and you perish in His way.” So kissing there I think communicates submission to God, obedience, and friendship. Judas in the gospels kissed Jesus. That was intended to be an act of friendship, but it actually communicated an act of betrayal. Paul talks about “greet one another with a holy kiss.”
So there’s nothing legal legalistic in saying that romantic affection should be reserved for marriage. I’m not saying it’s never ever appropriate to kiss someone. What I would want to think through would be, does this kissing them honor them and all purity? Does it honor the Lord? Would I do this with someone else who would be a sister or brother in Christ?
Those are matters of the heart; not matters of the law. So I think what I’m saying is in keeping with the spirit of the law and not the letter of it.
Heath Lambert: I also would say in this is as a grown man with three children, who, you know, I’ve been married for 14 years and I say to my shame that I kissed other women before I met my wife. At the time, it seemed like a fine idea —all of my friends were doing it. All of my Christian friends were doing it. And quite frankly, the rule everybody operated under in my Christian culture was just don’t have sex and everything else was kind of fine. And as a grown man, married for 14 years, I’m sorry I did that. I’m sorry for all those women that I kissed. Now it’s just this bad story I have to tell— in fact, I bumped into one of those girls on a date with my wife and this other girl was on a date with her husband, and it was just an awkward thing. Here was this girl that I’d kissed back in high school, and it just was weird. And I was just sorry that I had done it. For me, I would want to say from my vantage point —where I am in my life now— I think we’re in the category of Song of Solomon where he will say, “don’t arouse or awaken love before it desires.” And I think that’s really connected with the biblical category of patience. I think young people need to be patient. They need the spiritual fruit of patience, to just wait for something that the Lord has not given you right now.
Not everybody is going to agree with this —and that’s going to be between them and the Lord. We’re certainly not trying to lay a law on anybody that we’re going to enforce. But some people are going to be hearing this, and their conscience is going to be pricked. They’re sitting there saying, “Oh my goodness, I am treating this brother or sister, not like a brother or sister. They’re not my wife, they’re not my husband, I have crossed a line.” Maybe they don’t even agree the line is where you drew it, maybe they’ve gone too far. Maybe they’ve had sex, or maybe they’ve engaged in sexually inappropriate touching. They’ve crossed whatever the line is and now they’re full of regret. What should they do?
Sean Perron: A couple of things. I would want to tell them that God is in the business of making all things new. And Jesus is not surprised when we fail and He’s made a way to offer forgiveness for things that we’ve sinned against and people we’ve sinned against. And I would want to help them say, “Okay, I’ve messed up, how can I chart a new way, a new path to holiness?” Don’t focus on the technicalities like, “am I technically a virgin, and did I cross this line here?” I would not want to focus on those things. I would want a full and free confession to the Lord, a full and free confession into the person they’ve sinned with —knowing that Jesus forgives them and would love them, and as they’re walking in the light, they have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, cleanses them from all sin. So that would be one thing.
The next thing I would say is if you’re dating someone and you’ve gone too far, I think if it’s the kind of person you would want to marry, they would be thrilled for you to say, “hey, I want to hold the bar of purity high and I want to honor you and I want to present you blameless and without wrinkle or spot or any blemish on our wedding day. And I want to honor you in that way and honor the Lord. And so, hey, let’s change our boundaries. Let’s get people involved in our life who know what we’re doing, know where we are at different times when we’re on dates, and hold us accountable and let’s chart a new path towards holiness and honesty.”
Heath Lambert: As those folks are trying to pursue a path towards holiness and honesty and walking with the Lord and they still want to pursue this dating relationship, but they want to do that in a pure way. What are some recommendations you would give to couples who want to show affection and a biblically pure way before marriage?
Sean Perron: Yeah. So instead of focusing on the forbidden tree —and this instance romantic affection towards one another, that’s physical of nature. I would say, hey, explore all the other trees in the garden. There are tons of other trees that you can partake in and enjoy anything from. Whether it’s a day trip that you’re going to go and plan on a date. You’re going to take a long walk. You’re going to serve other saints in the church together. You’re going to go out and ask questions of godly mature couples and learn from them, ask questions of one another, and spend time together. I had a friend who came to me one time and he said, “hey my girlfriend expressed concern that I might not love her as much as she loves me. And we’re thinking about marriage, and she’s concerned that I’m not as interested in her as she is in me. What should I do?” And so I asked a couple of questions and he’s like, “I’m trying to be pure. I’m trying to not express too much affection for her, and I just want to honor the Lord.” I said, “hey it sounds like you just need to go buy a dozen roses. Find out her favorite treat, write her a note. Tell her you love her, or you’re praying for her and you want to pursue her for marriage. Go give it to her and tell her you think those things.”
He was completely shocked that I said that —I guess he thought I was a fundamentalist— and he did it. And I saw him later walking across her yard and he had the biggest smile on his face, and he was thrilled. And now they’re married and like glue. So, there’s nothing wrong with expressing affection as long as it’s done in a God-honoring, thoughtful, pure way. In fact, it might be wrong if you’re not expressing biblical affection for one another and letting them know that you’re praying for them and caring for them.