Dale Johnson: This week on the podcast, I have with me Dr. Keith Evans. He’s Associate Professor of Christian Counseling at the Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina. Previously, he was a Professor of Biblical Counseling, Director of the Biblical Counseling Institute, and Academic Dean at the Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
And prior to becoming a seminary professor in counseling, Keith pastored in Lafayette, Indiana for seven years. He’s married to Melissa. They have four daughters, and he earned his PhD in Biblical Counseling at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. Keith, welcome to the podcast, brother. Thanks for being with us.
Keith Evans: Thank you so much for having me.
Dale Johnson: We’re going to talk about the self-sufficiency of God, the independence of God today. I’m really looking forward to this because, Keith, to be honest with you, I think many, many times when we think about counseling solutions or counseling methods, we unintentionally may disconnect our theological dispositions. Sometimes, preferring more pragmatic methodologies without intending to discount our theological positions or our confessions about God and His character.
But sometimes we wind up doing that, again, as an unintended consequence. So, I want us to start here, and just ask you a basic question. Why is it important for counseling to be rooted in a right understanding of God’s nature? Because when we think about Biblical counseling, the nature of God is so important. So, why is it important that we start with understanding God’s nature before we even think about counseling and the person, what they’re walking through? Why is that important?
Keith Evans: Yeah, absolutely. So just on a really basic level, our theology always informs our counseling, like it can’t not, right? So, counseling methodology always flows downhill from our theology. And if we get our theology right, we have a greater likelihood of getting our counseling right.
It doesn’t mean that we’ll always get our counseling right if our theology is right, but we have a greater likelihood of doing so. And as far as why the nature of God, well, I want to be like my Father. I want my counseling to be like the God that I love and serve, and I’m being conformed to His pattern and His image. And so, I need to understand who He is, right?
If I want to be like Him, I have to know Him. And I have to know Him rightly. And so, if we know Him rightly—His being, His work, His character, we have a greater likelihood of counseling like Him, counseling in the very heartbeat of God.
Dale Johnson: I love that. And I think it’s so important when we think about the nature of God. I mean, if we’re thinking about this in a mapping context, He’s due north, right? So, for us to understand which direction we’re going, how we’re heading, we are people who are made in God’s image, in His likeness. To understand the nature of God is so critical. Not just knowing what He wants in our life, but how we understand what’s good and bad, what’s right and wrong, what’s healthy, what’s unhealthy. Such a critical piece.
So, talk about this in relation to, as we mentioned, God’s self-sufficiency or His independence. So how does God’s independence shape the way that we approach counseling relationships?
And Keith, I’m thinking about this in several different ways that I think is important. Because this aspect of the nature of God—like we have to bring who He is into the counseling room. And sometimes we think, oh, this is rigid. I’m giving some sort of formal teaching about theology proper. That’s not really the concept, but we have to bring to bear this truth and reality of His independence.
So, let me reiterate that: How does God’s independence shape the way we approach counseling relationships, especially in terms of avoiding the neediness or dependence of the counselee upon God?
Keith Evans: Yeah, so as far as self-sufficiency is concerned, God is the only being who is truly independent. We can’t be independent. That’s impossible, right? We are dependent creatures. And so, as we’re talking about this, we’re not in any way saying we want to be like God. I mean, that’s impossible to be independent, but we do want to emulate Him, right?
So, His independence means He doesn’t need anything from us. I mean, by God’s grace, He loves us. He cares for us. He receives our praise and worship in the Lord Jesus. He gets glory from us. That’s all wonderful, but He doesn’t need us, right? And so too, if we want to emulate God—I want to love and care for my counselees, but I don’t want to be needy and dependent upon them. I don’t need to get anything from them.
I want to serve them. I want to love and care for them, right? Like, I want that to be flowing from me to them—as opposed to, they need to give me something. And so, that’s what I’m connecting here as far as like wanting to emulate God’s independence. We want to be like Him in that way, that we’re not needy and dependent upon our counselees.
Dale Johnson: I love that. I think that’s helpful. And, you know, as you mentioned, God being independent, the only independent being, we cannot rightly see ourselves. I mean, I say this line all the time with George Swinnock.
In order to rightly understand ourselves, we have to understand who God is first, right? We, as dependent beings, our reality is shaped by, as David Powlison would say, “God being our environment,” right? Who He is as an independent being. We are dependent upon Him for life and sustenance and so on. So, I think this concept is absolutely critical.
Now, talk about how, in a practical way, this concept—really, what does it look like in the way in which we love, shepherd others unconditionally without seeking affirmation or validation in return?
And that’s often a difficulty for us, right, that we love that affirmation. So, talk about how this is important. This independence of God is important here.
Keith Evans: Yeah, absolutely. So Dale, I’m a preacher, and I just was preaching this past Sunday. You know, you get out of the pulpit, and there is that fleshly desire of wanting to hear, “hey, well done, preacher.” Like, “hey, pastor, that was a great sermon” or whatever. And I mean, it’s wonderful to have encouragement and feedback. No one’s speaking against that, but that desire to have the pat on the back.
And we have that same experience in counseling too. I want to be useful. I want to be a benefit to the person I’m caring for and working with. But there is also that fleshly desire of, “oh, but I want to know that, you know, that was clever or that was insightful” or whatever. But that really is kind of backwards as far as what we are to be doing.
Again, if God is unconditionally loving us, there’s nothing lovely in and of us that He looks upon us and He says, “okay, that’s why I’m loving you.” No, He’s really offering His love. He’s saying, “come by without price,” right? “Bread and drink without cost,” right?
And we want to do the same as far as like the free offer of the gospel and the goodness in counseling. Like, we want that to be flowing from us to our counselee. And so again, that’s a picture of how we’re emulating our independent God, that we’re not seeking any affirmation or validation in return from our counselees. I’m just seeking to pour out love, care, help, support, blessing them.
Dale Johnson: I think that’s critical. And let me follow up with that, because I think that is a struggle for all of us who still battle in this flesh. We still wrestle with this concept. And I think it’s interesting. One of the things that can guard us, I think, is how we identify success—what success actually looks like.
What is success in counseling? We talk about this all the time relative to measuring success in a secular counseling world through empirical devices and so on and so forth. Well, those empirical devices, they can’t be overlaid into a biblical counseling situation. And the reason is because what we’re measuring often is spiritual growth.
And how do you measure spiritual growth in such an empirical way? That’s a very, very difficult thing to do. So, I want you to talk a little bit about how God’s independence really shapes our understanding of success in the counseling room.
And we have a tendency to measure success based on, you know, that person validated us as the counselor, they thought we did a good job, or we did something novel, okay? Those things can get us in danger when we’re trying to, you know, present novel things where the counselee is impressed with what we did.
So, talk about how God’s independence really helps to ground us and shape us in how we think about success in the counseling room.
Keith Evans: Yeah, so God’s Word never returns void, right? It always accomplishes its purpose. And think about that first and foremost with God. God is always accomplishing His purposes, regardless of like, when we look around and see the response to that, you know. He’s bringing forth the fruits that He’s desiring to bring forth.
And so, in a similar fashion, right, as I’m rightly dividing the Word of Truth—I hope I’m rightly dividing the Word of Truth—like we want to be handling the Word well. But that’s not the only assessment that I’m examining as far as success, right?
So, have I handled God’s Word well? Have I handled it faithfully? And then have I handled my brother, my sister, or my brothers and sisters, if, you know, marriage counseling, whatever—have I handled this faithfully? As well, that I’ve cared for them? I’ve understood them? I’ve listened to them? I’ve shown compassion and empathy and concern for them?
And so, I’m understanding these two things, right? Then I don’t mean this in a callous way, and in any way, that would actually be an abuse of this idea. But regardless of the counselee’s response, I can say, okay, I’ve rightly handled the truth. I’ve rightly cared for my brothers and my sisters. Well, that’s success.
Now we trust the Lord with the results and the fruit that He’s bringing forth. But that’s a similar way that we’re not dependent upon the response of the counselee to assess success. And that’s getting back to what you were saying a moment ago, Dale, that we’re not just—it’s not empirical observation, right?
Like, did I see the particular response that I want to see? And then I call that faithfulness, or I call that, you know, whatever success might be. Have I rightly handled the Word of truth? And have I rightly cared for my brothers and sisters? Now I do want to see fruit, that would be wonderful, but we don’t always see that particular fruit.
Dale Johnson: That’s right, Keith. So, you mentioned this concept of callousness, and we’re right to be cautious, right? When we’re implementing concepts like this in the counseling room and the ways in which we think about success, we certainly don’t want to be hardened to results that we’re eager to see in the person’s life.
So, you’ve built this concept up about the independence of God and how valuable it is in a very practical way in the counseling room—really to guard the hearts of the counselee and to know what it is that we’re seeking or how we see the counselee themselves.
I want you to warn us in some ways to guard against what could be pitfalls as we unintentionally misapply this concept of God’s independence or His self-sufficiency. Just give us a word of caution here, because I can think of several different guardrails that we might need that we don’t fall into a pit on the other side of pragmatism.
Keith Evans: Yeah, and we find ourselves in high truth contexts, and praise God for that, right? Like we want high truth. We want to rightly revere and honor and uphold truth. But there’s a danger that comes with that. I’m not speaking against truth at all, right? Let’s maintain that. But the danger that comes with that is, well, “I’m just a truth teller”.
And so, I can just tell that truth regardless of the care with which I’m applying it to my counselee. And I can actually abuse this idea of, “well, it doesn’t matter about the counselee’s response. That’s their problem. I’ve told the truth.”
I mean, we’re ignoring the fact that we need to speak that truth in love. Sounds like a great name for a podcast. We need to speak that truth in love. We need to be gentle and compassionate and caring in doing so.
But I think a danger of saying, “well, it doesn’t matter the response of the counselee, have I been faithful to the Word,” is what can be a pitfall. Or it can be maybe a caricature in our circles of, “well, I’m just a truth teller, and they just need to deal with it.”
Dale Johnson: Yeah, I love that. I think that’s really, really helpful. You know, as I think about what you just described, I can’t help but think about the historical debates about Calvinism. When I think of the pitfalls of the wonderful doctrines of grace, and you think about those doctrines, and some people have taken it to a hyper mold to say, “well, then we shouldn’t even evangelize.”
The concept is we still bear that human responsibility in the way in which we confess and preach the gospel. I think what you’re doing is describing that tension, maybe even within the counseling room. “Oh, I’m just going to throw the truth out there. The Lord’s going to do His thing.”
And okay, that’s true—but the way in which we engage a person, we also have to wrestle with the tension of the whole counsel of God’s Word and the ways in which we deal with and care for and move in close, compassionately toward a person.
So speaking the truth and love and having those two things tethered together—It’s really helpful, brother, in helping us think through this God’s self-sufficiency, God’s independence, and just seeing the practical nature of such a heady doctrine—how it is to be implemented and practically put out in the counseling room. So brother, thanks for your help in us considering this today and thinking through it.
Keith Evans: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.