Dale Johnson: Today, I am joined by Joel Wood. He’s the senior pastor of New Life, Presbyterian Church of La Mesa, California. He holds a B.A. from Moody Bible Institute in Chicago, an M.Div., and a D.Min. degree from Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and he’s an ACBC fellow. He’s married to Emily, has been married to her for 20 years. They have a daughter and son-in-law in Maryland. A son attending a university in Manhattan, Kansas and that’s really close to us here in Kansas City, and three kids at home still. Joel operates veritysoul.care. He’s an adjunct professor at City Seminary in Sacramento, California, the Westminster Seminary in Philadelphia, and he also teaches with OIC (Overseas Instruction in Counseling), which trains pastors, lay people, and seminarians in biblical counseling around the world. He’s also a 1/4 of the Jerusalem Chamber podcast for anyone interested in dabbling in the Theology of the Westminster Confession. And Joel, I think this is your first time here on the Truth in Love podcast and I couldn’t be more thrilled to have you on here.
Joel Wood: It is my first time, it’s great to be here.
Dale Johnson: Good deal. Well, listen, we’re going to talk a little bit about your presenting this year, at our pre-conference, in Memphis, Tennessee on wisdom and understanding biblical counseling from the book of James. You were given James chapter 2 to look at, at least a portion of that. So, I want to talk through some of that the necessity of works in conjunction with faith. And so, I want to jump right into it if we can, and just look at the passage itself, what does James 2 reveal about the importance of definitions as we discuss some of the biblical ideas are biblical and theological ideas of justification and works, and sometimes we get really confused about those terms. So, let’s lay the groundwork first.
Joel Wood: Yeah, so obviously James has been a point of tripping for many over many centuries, and part of it is because of its use of terminologies and how James is laying out his argument for the necessity of works. But then, we very quickly have to be careful. What is the necessity of works? And what is being justified and how is it being justified? And this is a great text for pastors who want to motivate their people to give to the building fund or to volunteer for nursery duty or whatever else might, you know, they might be wanting from their people. But we have to use care in understanding what James is saying in what works does to justify our faith, and all of it has to be taken in context with the rest of the New Testament.
The entire redemptive complex as Christ brings that to us by his Holy Spirit and see this as a natural outcome of the redemption purchase for us by Christ, not just justification was purchased for us on the cross, not just adoption was purchased for us on the Cross, our sanctification was as well. And so, if we are Justified, it’s not enough to simply say, “Well, I’m justified. I am received as holy. The righteousness of Christ has been imputed to my account, so therefore, I am as holy as I can ever be in the sight of God. So, therefore, it doesn’t matter what I do.” And that is the mentality that’s been adopted by some over many years, that’s the mentality that James is speaking against here. That if you really have been converted, if your heart really has been regenerated, if the effectual call of God has been heard in your heart, you’ve been given a new heart, Ezekiel 36, the heart of stone taken out, heart of flesh put in. Then, you really will begin to beat with the heartbeat of God. And you will desire holiness and you will actually be able to desire and do holy things, not in order to be saved, but because we have been saved, we will be able to do these things.
Dale Johnson: Yeah, that’s right. So, you mentioned that one of the primary errors that we see here is the idea of we have a license to go and sin if we’ve been made new. The other error on the other side is we think we have to work in order to obtain salvation. It was so much so that you mentioned people of debated over this for centuries, Martin Luther wanted James out of the canon, and this was a primary text that he thought was against Paul’s teaching on justification. But just as you described this flows very well with the New Testament understanding of justification, and I think it’s important for us. Let me bring this down, I want to continue to press you a little bit here on how we understand the passage in full, but I want us to see how this is important in counseling. People may say, well, why are we talking about these theological concepts, justification, sanctification, that sort of thing. I see so many people confused in the counseling room around these particular ideas of justification, sanctification, and so much anxiety, fear, pressure, and false expectations, not understanding the depth of the work of Christ for our justification. All those things wrap into emotional despair to some degree by so many people and the moralism that we constantly fight.
So, these are major issues to have clarity on as a counselor because we see the byproduct of this, in the ways in which people have faulty expectations about life, they don’t live properly in justification, and so on. So, as we work through, you’ve given us an idea of some of these definitions, the biblical, and theological ideas here. So, let’s give the basic understanding. What’s the primary topic or the primary idea that we’re seeing here in this particular passage in James 2?
Joel Wood: The primary idea I believe is that not we are justified, but that our faith is justified, it’s defended by the fact that we are able to, and desire to do good works. And I think this is so important for the church and the place I intend to drill down for, my pre-conference message, is this point that he makes about the demons that is actually, he waxes poetic there in that phrase things you don’t see in the English, but it’s actually a rhyming statement about the demons believing and trembling. And I think what we’re reaping in the church broadly is a real passion for right doctrine and then combining that in bad ways with the selling of books and the multiplication of opportunities, you know. And so, if someone’s seemingly productive and seemingly successful in ministry or whatever, ignoring the works side of their life and their ministry. And we see it’s almost weekly, it seems another context where there are horrific abuses coming out of some type of ministry or church culture, or educational culture, something like this. And there’s balance on another side where this side of heaven, we will never know everything. We are starting to think we can figure everything out and know all of history, and all times and places, that’s impossible. But we are seeing this divorcing of faith and works in the public ministry of the church, and that’s what’s led to some of what we’re reaping right now.
So, if demons can have really a right belief, they understand who God is, they understand what their destiny is because of their chosen path, they understand all these things, and they even respond some in fear. And yet, that does not mean that they are now pursuing right and good ends in their lives and their works. So, it is, I think it’s a real clarion call to us in the church to be aligning our works with what we say we believe, and stop worrying about sales and stop worrying about Twitter followers, and stop worrying about all these things and seek after the holiness that we are able to live in because of what Christ has done. And that’s what dips is back down into the counseling office as well, right, is to have the guts to look at sinners and say, “Look, if you have trusted Christ, if you believe Christ, if you’ve received Him, as He is presented to you in the gospel, you can actually change.” And that’s not a popular message nowadays. You hear that very constantly that people cannot change, but this is also and this is one of the luxuries of biblical counseling, we can take the time to see if people really have changed. We don’t have a limited amount of times that we can enter a code into the insurance form. And we can walk with them week by week, month by month, year by year, and see, has this change in their heart really happened? Is this resulting fruit? What seems like fruit, is it really fruit? Or is it just faking it until they can make it back into the position that they want to be in?
Dale Johnson: And the Lord tells us in the gospels that that will be revealed certainly over time. He uses several parables to do that. I do like the way that you’re referencing back to the gospels. Jesus’ constant encounters with demons and various places, and they do recognize who He is. They certainly believe, they know some of those truths and I like the way you’re bringing out the way James distinguishes between faith. They have a certain belief but it’s distinct from saving faith in what James is calling us to here, and the expression of it by works. Now, that brings us to that penultimate question about justification and how works fits in because, again, some people want to describe that works is what actually saves us. That’s a distinction from us in Protestant Reformed thinking. So, let’s nail down a bit here on how do works actually justify us.
Joel Wood: Works show forth that the redemption that we claim to have is real, and that is the fundamental adjustment in our relationship to the Law that is laid out in Scripture. No longer a taskmaster, now a friend. A friend who reminds us how to live thankful lives before a holy God. And so, we lay our head on our pillow. I lied less today than I did yesterday or last week or last month. I was less of a mean guy. I was delighting more in holiness. I was delighting more in worship than I did before. These are the changes that we see. Some may have seen the recent floating around on Twitter of John Gerstner’s lecture on this. If you ever want to see R.C. Sproul before he was R.C. Sproul, just watch John Gerstner. His lecture on the necessity of non-meritorious works, that these works are not garnering us any favor with God. They are simply the fruit of what God has done in our lives, and they’re absolutely necessary. But they are also absolutely non-meritorious as regards our redemption.
Dale Johnson: And I think that’s critical because that certainly agrees with what Paul is trying to articulate in Ephesians 2 where even in these works. We’re not boasting in something that we’re doing that gains us something before God. But we’re boasting in the goodness of Christ, it makes us thankful, as you mentioned, you lay your head on your pillow at night and it makes you grateful for the work that the Lord is doing in you, and the empowerment that the Spirit gives to now do things that are righteous before the Lord. Let’s see, we’ve got a few minutes left. I want us to see if we can bring some of these ideas pointedly into the counseling room, and maybe give an example of the ways in which the backdrop of justification and the idea of works is really fleshed out in the counseling room, as a part of encouragement, the one who may be struggling with various sins or whatever and really burdened in their conscience that sort of thing. Talk about how the backdrop of justification and works and the teaching of James is very pointed and helpful to someone struggling in that way.
Joel Wood: If I could draw an analogy, if anyone’s ever worked somewhere where their employment is every day up in the air, they’re not sure if at the end of the day they’re going to have a job or not because of whatever is going on in that context. I have friends who have worked at a company where it was said, if the boss fires you in front of a group of people, come back the next day because he was just mad and blowing off steam. If he fires you one-on-one, you’re done. You know, just that uncertainty and it’s that type of uncertainty that a lot of Christians show up in the counseling office with. It’s dominating their life and we can say in a sense they’ve done it to themselves, that sounds a little cold-hearted. But that’s why we’re there to help is to help work through that and show them how you know, a constant pursuit of sin, nurturing of sin, hiding of sin, delighting in sin, how that is breaking down that confidence and assurance that is not necessarily guaranteed in this life. It fluctuates, that assurance does, but they’re breaking down all hope of assurance of what Christ has done for them and reminding them that the work of Christ is finished. It is as done as it can ever be. It is absolutely completed for them in the justification and the adoption. And then that sanctification, and this is using language from the Shorter Catechism, but justification and adoption are an act, one time and they are irrevocable. And then sanctification is a work. It is over time. It is more or less and the larger catechism lays out this great table verbally of justification in one column, sanctification in the other. What does that mean for the believer? In sanctification, it’s not perfect in any and it’s never perfect in this life. I’ll know when your sanctification is complete, Dale, because I’ll really enjoy the potluck at your funeral.
Dale Johnson: That’s right. That’s right.
Joel Wood: That is when that is completed and walking folks through that reality and helping them understand how their desire and their pursuit of sin is toying with the confidence that they can have in Christ. I think is very good for them to see that. It’s very good for us to be reminded of that, as counselors because we can easily fall into these things, and you know, even think well because of because I’m counseling, because I am trying to help people then, therefore, God must love me, right. There must be a seat at the table and be reminded to know it’s all leveled, the great apostolic levelers. They’re always talking about our faith, our faith, our faith and never putting themselves up above the rest of the church. They’re constantly bringing the church along in the understanding of the faith. It’s the same faith that they’ve received.
Dale Johnson: Yeah, that’s good, I think as you mentioned, I mean, sometimes the lack of assurance is the great tormentor and the teaching solidifies here that it is in our faith in the person and work of Christ that accomplishes this work. And as you mentioned in sanctification, Paul clarifies and says, in the same way, Colossians 2:6 “in which you received the Lord Jesus, walk in him.” And we’re walking by that same faith in the same work of Christ that He’s accomplished for us. This has been good. I think it’s been helpful. Listen, I don’t know about you guys but I’m looking forward to our time together October 3rd for our pre-conference this year on Wise and Understanding. Joel’s going to be with us, and we’ll have other speakers as well talking on the Book of James and giving us very practical, biblical, theologically deep wisdom that we can apply in the counseling room.
Brother, thanks so much for waking up early from California and joining us today!
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