Dale Johnson: This week on the podcast I have with me. Dr. Scott Mehl. Scott pastors Cornerstone Church of West LA. He is the managing director of the Institute for Biblical Counseling and Discipleship; which many know as IBCD, and he’s a fellow with ACBC. He speaks and writes regularly on topics related to counseling and discipleship and he’s the author of Loving Messy People and his newest book which we’re going to talk about today is Redeeming Sex in Marriage. [1] Scott, so grateful for you brother and looking forward to our conversation today on this new book that you released.
Scott Mehl: Man. I’m so thankful for you too Dale, and it’s just an honor and is a blessing to get to connect.
Dale Johnson: Now as I’m always curious to hear from an author, what is it that leads them to write the book obviously. You saw some sort of need or some sort of way that you needed to communicate more clearly and, in our culture, writing on this topic of sex is a hard thing to do biblically in the climate that we live in. I’m eager to hear what led you to write a book on this particular topic.
Scott Mehl: Yeah, you know, I mean, it is a particular challenge in our cultural context, and you know, like a lot of things and like a lot of projects, the Lord kind of directs and He demonstrates both need in the local church and in people’s lives around us and provides an opportunity for that and this came up because to me our world is so confused. I mean, confused is an understatement, right? It’s completely lost its mind when it comes to anything related to sex and sexuality, and because of that, in the church, we spend so much time talking about what sex is not. Sometimes we don’t actually take the time to fully develop, why did God create this? Why did He create us sexual beings? If Scripture is sufficient for all of life. I mean one of the things that’s interesting I think is that there’s a temptation for us because the sexual has become so perverted in our world even sometimes that in our context that undercuts the sufficiency of Scripture because we say it probably doesn’t talk about that, right? but the thing is I mean from the first page to the last sex and sexuality are topics that we see throughout Scripture in all sorts of different ways. In the beauty of what God created for in the devastation of the fall in sexuality.
The reason I wrote this was because I think most of us desperately need a deeper theology of sex and sexuality particularly in marriage when I think we’re like, “okay night now I can stop thinking about it now, I don’t have to think about it anymore.” God gave me the opportunity and I was thankful to kind of take some of the things that we’ve been teaching here at Cornerstone for years and flush them out even more fully.
Dale Johnson: I appreciate so much what you said, and we can even be tempted in this way as we try to respond to as you said, whatever the next level is beyond confusion that we see happening with sexuality in our culture, you know, it’s easy for us to even engage those arguments on those philosophical levels rather than re-centering ourselves back to some theological reality. Which is the basis for why we think those things are radically confused and I think you’ve done that in this book.
I want you to talk a little bit about what is the most central theological truth about physical intimacy in marriage that you are trying to help couples to grasp. Because it is honestly that central theological concept that really gives the grounding that we see and can see clearly all the confusion that’s happening out there. So help us along with that.
Scott Mehl: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean the main theological insight I hope people take away is really just the core message, which is that if marriage is about God, then sex is about God and not in its actions, that’s to take it too far. But all of life is about God. God created all of life to glorify Himself and reveal unique things and aspects of Himself. And that is absolutely true with sex and sexuality and it’s what I call in the book the transcendent purpose of sex. In creating us as sexual beings God really built into our very nature a vocabulary through which He communicates, as Piper puts it, “the promises and pleasures of His love for us” and there’s a number of other purposes of sex that I talk about in the book that it’s a means of common union and that it’s a means of mutual pleasure, there is an expression of marital love, and that sex can bring new life. But each of these purposes are aspects of a shadow that God has created to reveal unique aspects of what He’s like and of the depth and beauty and His glory. And again, I think that’s what we should expect with a God who has imbued every aspect of life and humanity with deeper meaning. But when we don’t think about it that way and when we don’t think about it that seriously and when we don’t even consider the depth of the things that God is communicating or revealing through sex then, even in marriage, it ends up being thin, oftentimes justifying selfishness and self-gratification instead of understanding its place in the larger purposes of God.
Dale Johnson: Man, well said, and I think that’s protecting against the right thing because we can Christianize our own self pursuit, particularly in the bedroom. Now, I want to bring this in. I think it’s much easier now that you’ve centered us theologically to see very clearly for people in the church the chaos that’s happening in the culture. Let’s bring this a little bit closer. Okay, because we have people who are listening who know other couples who are struggling in this particular area. They think like we do about marriage. They honor marriage. They love marriage. They believe the Lord created sexuality as something good and couples still struggle with intimacy for all sorts of reasons. So, how do you in this book, you know based on this theology that you’re developing, how do you give hope to those sorts of disappointed or discouraged couples who aren’t experiencing that level of expression in intimate sex?
Scott Mehl: As a fellow counselor, this is why I was so passionate to write this book because I think the theology that I expound, well it’s not new, right? I mean, it’s not only ancient but as you read the commentaries and the theological works, it’s pretty consistent. However, I think that theology isn’t always accessible, kind of popularly in that sense. It doesn’t always connect all the dots between that deep and rich theology and the practical struggles that couples in our church face. And that most couples have because we don’t talk about it and when you don’t talk about it, and the people next to you aren’t talking about it, then you just assume that everybody else is fine. And you’re the only one struggling so that means something’s wrong with you and like a lots of counseling issues that it just snowballs internally when we don’t invite people in and so that’s why spend the second half of the book just trying to connect the dots between that theology and the lived experience of couples and the real questions and struggles. More than anything, I just want all couples to know that the struggles in their sex lives are not hopeless.
In this milieu of literature out there in Christian books on the topic of sex I think sometimes it seems to pay to be shocking and so I was like, oh, you know the Christian ways to like great sex and you know, things like that and I think people are just looking for “wait, how do I understand this and how does that shape me so that I can experience what God has created for us because it feels like we’re not experiencing that and we’re struggling in one way or another.” And it’s in that context that I want people to know that struggle is not hopeless and whatever has gone on in your past or however long you’ve been married, whatever your struggles there is hope for your marriage and for your sex life. I think sex is such a uniquely powerful aspect of humanity that the fallenness in it, our sexual sin, our sexual brokenness, our sexual past, they affect us in uniquely intense ways and one of the topics that struck me the most actually earlier just in doing this research, even wrote an article about it, was about how our God is a God of healing and He brings healing in all of its facets. He heals our hearts by His comfort, He heals our sin by His forgiveness, He heals our unfaithfulness by His transformation, and He heals our future by His hope. It’s in that context that I want to convey to people that there is healing available in Christ for all the different things they’re struggling with, and I also even talk about sometimes in marriage maybe there are marriages that for one reason or another have a physical limitation. They’re not able to have sex and we talked about that. Well, what is healing internally look like? What does intimacy look like, and how do you navigate that? But our God is a God of hope and again because we don’t sometimes talk about this area of life and relationships. I think sometimes we don’t apply hope to it. And so, we just kind of wallow in the hopelessness. I’m encouraging people to know there’s hope.
Dale Johnson: Well said and I think we can get the impression that we are the only people who have you know, certain struggles that the other couples don’t experience, and I’ll add, you mentioned that our God is a God of hope and healing in these ways. He’s also a God of patience because you know, it can be very important that we understand that you can sort of ebb and flow in and out of good intimacy and maybe not as close intimacy and you know not to get discouraged about that but this theological reality that you’re painting, this beauty of a God of hope and patience, our relationships contribute to that level of ebb and flow in our intimate relationships. And so, making sure we’re staying on top of that as we grow in Christ that does change the way that we see intimacy in the bedroom and not to get discouraged when man I felt like we’ve had this at one point man, we’ve lost it to some degree you’re giving a centerpiece that people can constantly return to and not get over or discouraged that we can never have what we once had, you know at some point in the past. I really appreciate that perspective and the center point that you’re helping us lean into that can address the variability of problems that we might see in a relationship and in marriage specifically
Now, let’s finish this way and this always happens anytime you’re researching you’ve mentioned yourself man. We’ve thought theologically about these things for you know, quite some time historically. You’ve probably taught on these things in the past, but anytime you start taking a very deep look at the Scriptures what they describe, the unity of the Scriptures, and how they describe something like sexuality and the covenant relationship of marriage and then as you’re assessing how those truths relate to the problems that people experience on a deeper level, we always learn something. So, I want you to help us understand some of the things that you learned in the process of writing this book.
Scott Mehl: One of the things that I was struck by was just how much of Scripture touches on the sexual aspect of humanity. One of the things when I was just beginning the process was, I just did a Bible survey like just literally flip through every page of my Bible and looking for both references and teaching and guidelines and I was kind of overwhelmed because it’s everywhere in that sense. And as a pastor and a counselor that to me was contrasted with how little people talk about it even in their most trusted relationships in the church. I have married couples in our churches that just desperately need to talk about sex maybe talk about with one another, I mean it starts there even couples don’t have deep conversations because there could be a lot of shame, there can be a lot of pain, there can be a lot of embarrassment. It starts with talking with one another, even just talking with trusted friends, and I’m just afraid that most couples really don’t want to talk about sex. The end part is that they don’t know how to talk about it. They don’t know who to talk about it with, and so, you know, when it comes up, it’s either we either joke about it or just kind of speak flippantly or crassly about it. And in a weird way, maybe in a predictable way, those jokes and those slight comments actually reinforce the opposite of what’s true oftentimes. Even in our attempts to deal with the awkwardness we sometimes make it worse not better.
My heart is to invite people into a conversation obviously just like any book or resource or any teaching you know, there’s no such thing as the final word, only God gets the final word on it. But my heart has been in conversation with people just been to invite people into that and that’s where one of the things I’ve learned how delicate and careful and patient we need to be in that invitation. You said it really well, that this requires a lot of patience. Both with one another in the church and with one another in a relationship, in a marriage just because the first time trying to talk about it didn’t go well doesn’t mean we give up because God has something more for us, but it’s not easy nor an easy road necessarily to engage in but it’s beautiful and glorious and it’s just like every other in life. It’s one empowered by the Spirit that he wants to draw us in and reveal more to us.
Dale Johnson: Well said and I so appreciate your work here and then sharing it with us through your new book Redeeming Sex in Marriage. I do pray that you all will pick up a copy and share the insights that the Lord has given to Scott as he studied this and trying to encourage us in the church on how to stay centered on the theological principles as we think about sex in marriage and the beauty of it, we are not swept away by the cultural chaos that’s happening.
Brother, thank you for your labor and giving us the wisdom that the Lord has taught you through this.
Scott Mehl: Absolutely.
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