Dale Johnson: This week on the podcast, I have with me. Dr. Carl Hargrove. Dr. Hargrove has pastored two churches in the LA area from 1993 to 2014. In 2014, he returned to his ordaining church, Grace Community Church, where he directs Grace Advance, a Ministry that provides pastoral leadership for developing churches and pastors in North America. The Anchored Fellowship group is very involved in mission’s support, with an emphasis on Africa. Carl is also a faculty associate at the Masters Seminary, and he’s a graduate of the University of Cincinnati Master’s Seminary, with an M.Div., THM and D.MIN. He and his wife Joanna have been married for 28 years, and they have five children. Dr. Hargrove, it is wonderful to have you with me. It’s good to see you again and welcome to the podcast.
Carl Hargrove: Good to be back. And you know what? Two years have gone by, now it’s 30 years with Joanna.
Dale Johnson: 30 years already? We need to update this bio.
Carl Hargrove: Indeed.
Dale Johnson: That’s right. 30 years, well congratulations. Yeah, we all strive to make it 30 years—which is really great. Listen, we’re going to talk today about something I think is exciting. We’re looking forward to our conference coming up, and we’re going to talk about this very subject. We’re going to talk about the care of Christ. You’re one of our speakers. I’m really looking forward to you being there with us and you sharing with our folks, and as being an ACBC certified member. You know, I want us to get into this because I don’t think we talk about this enough. So many people, even in Christian Counseling and integration world, they’ll describe Jesus as some sort of model. But then they really don’t talk about Jesus a whole lot. So, I want us to address this if we can in some way. So, let’s just talk about this at the outset: How is Jesus a model for counseling?
Carl Hargrove: Excellent. And we ask ourselves, and what is counseling? As we can say, “He’s a model of…” What are we modeling? We’re modeling coming alongside. We’re modeling helping. We’re modeling compassion. We’re modeling sharing truth. We’re modeling spurring someone on to be conformed to something. And, of course, that something is Christ, and we are hoping that Christ be formed in people. So, He is the model of helping that. How is He a model counselor? He’s a model of everything that is right and good. You can think about Christ as a big picture by going to John’s gospel and looking images of Jesus Christ. There He is, chapter 4; He’s like the Living Water. So, with this water, you will thirst again, but Christ is a living water. And when we counsel with people, we’re often saying, “Friends, what you are striving for will never satisfy you. Here is a solution: Now, Christ is the bread of life. Yes, He gives substance. Christ offers Freedom.” Chapter 8 tells us that, “Whom the Son sets free, is free indeed.” He has that light as well. And in counseling, we’re saying there is a greater freedom for you to live your Christian life. And maybe let me pause for a second and say, sometimes we think with counseling, that someone is there to overcome some sin that is holding them back from living the most dynamic Christian Life today. And that, of course, can be the case—but counseling is also just to make a better decision: What’s the best decision that I can make for my life? People are looking for that as well. When it comes to counseling, you know, Christ is the Door. He is the Good Shepherd. In chapter 10, He is the one that offers abundant life. So, He models that sense in which He is the greatest resource available. And as a counselor, what we have to offer you here are these biblical principles and precepts and commands that are offered to you, that will enhance your life. You can walk in wisdom in life. So, I see that Christ is that model for us, and we would do well to follow it. He was also a great God of compassion. And that’s a very interesting emphasis that you will see in Matthew’s gospel, like how “He felt compassion” and “He had compassion.” So, the counselor must have a compassionate heart to those he is helping is everything.
Dale Johnson: I love the way that you help reset our cultural idea of counseling. We’re not saying some sort of professional idea. What we’re describing is the way Jesus approached people in personal ministry. I’ve heard it said, even looking at the gospels, I think this is something that’s accurate, where Jesus did far more personal ministry than he did even public proclamation. Now, I don’t say that at all to diminish preaching. That is critical as the centerpiece of our time together as we worship the Lord on the Lord’s day—that is critical. I say that just because we often under emphasize the value of personal ministry, in modeling Christ, in that particular way. And of course, so we see this in the gospels. We see Jesus interacting with people one-on-one, in personal smaller groups, and then broadly in masses. As we talked about Him personally interacting, you mentioned John. You sort of gave several categories, and John provided some insightful interaction that Jesus has with individuals. Talk about some of the particular emphasis that John’s gospel can benefit us as biblical counselors. I am really looking forward to how you’re going to share and weave through this, because I think sometimes biblical counselors when they read the Scriptures—maybe we miss some of the value of paying attention to how Jesus does things. And Because it’s not in some sort of modern language of some sort of psychological approach of how to help somebody, in a technical methodological way—we sort of miss the way Jesus just interacts with people, and that truth prevails. So, describe some of these emphases.
Carl Hargrove: That’s great. Think about that for a moment. Jesus, we can say it this way, He met them in their present condition. With the woman at the well, He says, “well, go get your husband.” Oh, wait a minute. He met her at that point. Jesus says, “bring the children to me. Have them come to me. They can sit at my feet.” So, He makes adjustments for people. He was also one who could say, “you whitewashed tombs, you are deceivers.” And so, we look at Christ, and He is adjusting to those people that are in front of him. His message doesn’t change; The manner in which He communicates it, at times, does. That’s even true in preaching. So, for instance, think about preaching: Say, for instance, that someone comes to a shepherd’s conference of 5,000 men from around the country. Most of them are pretty versed in Scripture and you preach a certain way. And there is a person who goes to a church, and they’ve never even heard the word expository. So, what approach do you take? You have to make those adjustments. But you still deal with the text, and I think as a counselor be aware of where this person is. What is their background? Are they Roman Catholic? Are they of some extreme Pentecostal background? Is it strictly paganism that they’ve come from? They’ve grown up in what sort of church? All those environments. What was their home like growing up? And then we consider that when we are ministering to them, as well. So, Christ did that; He made adjustments with people and circumstances. And using things around Him to help people understand truth, you know. That is what Christ, the kingdom of God, is like and people could identify with it. That’s right. Yeah, a Pearl. That’s correct. Or a bird that’s hopping about. Yeah, that’s right. I get that; I can see that. We do well to learn from Him.
Dale Johnson: I love that. I think, you know, of the fig tree contraction. He’s not describing that truth is in the fig tree. He’s not describing that truth is in the Lily or truth is in the bird, right? A lot of people misinterpret that. What He’s saying is, “let me teach you.” Truth is fixed, and we see a beautiful metaphor of what that looks like, as He’s teaching as He goes along. He’s helping to disciple people, and this is the idea. Now, I’m sort of hesitant to go where I want to go.
Carl Hargrove: Okay, haha.
Dale Johnson: Next, I mentioned at the beginning, that you’re going to be with us at the National Conference this year in Fort Worth, Texas. We’re going to be talking about the subject more broadly. If I cut you lose running on it, I want you to give a knap. You know, wet the appetite of those who are going to be with us. And so, I want you to talk a little bit about some of the things that you’re mulling over, and thinking over, as you prepare to speak to our folks there at the annual conference on this very subject.
Carl Hargrove: Well, some of it comes out even in those questions about Christ and looking at Him briefly in John’s gospel—those “I am statements.” What’s the import of these I am statements to me as a counselor? The significance of Christ, the sufficiency of Christ, pointing people to Him. We see that He could identify with people at different levels. That’s so important as a counselor. The willingness to be patient—He was surely patient with his disciples, oh, my was He. And so, with the counselor, there is a need to be patient with people, as they grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ. And you can be there, you know, called alongside them in that. But there’s something in particular, because I was given the topic of Christ and His forgiveness, as a counselor. And I think about Colossians, and we’ll definitely do a lot with the book of Colossians—walking through it and looking at Christ in verses 1 through 4: Who is Christ? Who is above? And we must look above. And then, I love verse 13: Bearing with one another, forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone, just as the Lord forgave you, So also should you. So, how do we admonish, encourage and instruct people to have this spirit of forgiveness? Christ was that way. Christ reutilized, Christ crucified, but yet Christ forgave. And we have to remind people in this area of forgiveness. Let us be cautious, when we withhold forgiveness, because we then make ourselves greater than God. Look how He forgave. And we need to keep that reminder in front of us. In Christ, there was forgiveness. This is what He said to the disciples when they thought that they had come upon something spiritual, when they said “well, 7 times.” Hold on a second. Let increase your math here—Seventy times seven times that you forgive.
So, I want to talk about Christ and His sufficiency, and to look at Christ in John’s gospel to see that He is sufficient. We will carry over into Colossians and see how Christ is sufficient. And we look to Him, and that’s really even the motivation in chapter 3, you know, as He is finished. We’re going to be revealed with Him in glory, in verse 4. Then He says in verse 5, “therefore, put to death the members of your body;” here is motivation when we look to Christ.
Dale Johnson: This is so helpful, Carl. You know, one of the things I think about as you’re describing this, and one of the reasons I’m so unbelievably excited about the conference coming up, is that ACBC sometimes gets caricatured as if our we know everything that you’re against, right? And listen, if there’s a biblical precedent, we should be. You talked about the book of Colossians chapter 2:8, we should be guarding against empty philosophy and vain deception. We’re to stand against those things—those ideas, thoughts, and practices that are raised up against the knowledge of God. We are called to do those things, but we are also called to promote the things that we see in Scripture as a means to minister well, and Jesus demonstrates that for us. And we’re going to spend an entire conference focusing on the beauty, that I would call it: The treasures, the depths of the treasures of wisdom and knowledge that is found in Christ as a model, for how we do the things that we do, to minister to people so that Christ can bear their burden. So that Christ can give them rest. And we’re looking forward to that. And we’re excited that you’re going to open God’s word. You can encourage us with God’s word and help us to see the things that we saw in our Lord, that we’re supposed to model after. Brother, thank you for your time. Looking forward to being together in October and sharing here with us now. Thank you so much.
Carl Hargrove: Absolutely, thank you so much.
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