Dale Johnson: This week on the podcast, I have with me Keith Evans. He’s an assistant professor of biblical counseling at the Reformed Theological Seminary, in Charlotte, North Carolina. And he’s also an ordained pastor. Keith has been teaching at the Seminary level since 2018, and he’s been in pastoral Ministry since 2011. He’s married to Melissa, and they have four daughters. Currently, Keith is completing his PhD in biblical counseling at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, in Louisville, Kentucky. Keith, welcome today. I’m looking forward to discussing how we discern whether something is sin or not, and how we approach that as a biblical counselor. So, welcome today.
Keith Evans: Thank you so much.
Dale Johnson: Now, this is a constant topic. This has been a topic since the beginning of our movement, in its modern sense: How do we categorize something, whether it be sin or not? And I’m interested to see where we’re going to take this discussion today. We tend to think about these actions, oftentimes, as being like super straightforward, right? Like okay, we can categorize this as sin; we know, biblically, how we’re going to approach this. Or we’re going to categorize this as suffering; So biblically, we know how we’re going to approach this. Is it that easy, though? Is it that easy and so straightforward in every situation? It’s a valuable question, certainly it’s an essential question. But is that the only type of question we should be asking, when we’re considering whether an issue is sin or not?
Keith Evans: Yeah, those are great questions. And this is where I was helped in my studies at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, completing my THM in Christian ethics. In the biblical counseling world, we’re always doing ethics, but I don’t know if we think about it in those terms, right? And so, this is where I was served by studying, kind of, the philosophy of moral categories and seeing how all of this is brought to bear on a given action. And so, just to introduce some additional categories: like yes, of course an action can be sin, or it can be a moral good, that we ought to do, or it could just be an indifferent action. And the Scriptures speak about that, whether we eat meat sacrificed to idols, right? But yet, we have to take into consideration how even an indifferent action can impact others. And so now, we’ve just introduced another category: that Christianity would have us care for how our actions impact our brother and sister. And I can’t just ignore that and pretend like that’s not an issue. But then also the Scriptures would have us consider others’ perceptions, and that we’re to avoid even the appearance of evil. And I can’t say “well somebody you know has a problem with what I’ve done, tough” and just ignore it. I hear my brother and sister. I have to listen to even their perceptions. And then two other categories to just kind of throw into this mix, not to overcomplicate, but just to see that there are a lot of considerations here. My motive for doing what I do, can make things even worse if I have bad motives, right? We want to have good motives for why we do the right thing. And then the intention as well: that I want to produce a good result, a good outcome; like I have a good aim for what I’m shooting for. And so, all of these things go into: is it sin or is it not? What’s my motive? What’s my intention? What about the action itself? What about the impact on my brothers and sisters? And then, what about their perception of the situation?
Dale Johnson: You know, Keith is so helpful, because this gets to the way I describe to so many people, how dynamic the Bible is, right? It gives categories of assessment that are so critical, and it’s important for us to be discerning. We talk a lot even in our fundamentals training about our discernment—our interpretation of what the problems are. And we have to have this biblical backdrop to understand the dynamics that the Scripture gives relative to an individual. And this is where the secular world can’t plum these depths, right? Of how to see, understand, and interpret what’s going on in a person. They’re happy if a behavior changes. Well, biblically, we know that if a behavior changes, then it still might not achieve godliness, which is the ultimate goal. So, I think it’s important that you’re making these distinctions. So, okay, what we have in front of us, is we have these five categories that you mention, that you laid out. And these are important for us to consider because they’re important to God, as He lays these out in the Scriptures. When we think about and use words like motives and intention, right? And this gets to how we describe the heart being something that is active. And so, as we think about these five categories, how do we see these different categories addressed in Scripture? And it is important that we flush this part out, because how we discern these five categories—There’s biblical wisdom that we should approach, depending upon where a person fits within these categories. So, flesh these five different categories out and help us understand them a little bit.
Keith Evans: Yeah, absolutely. So, for my motive I can do a bad thing for the right reason. I can lie in order to accomplish a good. So, I have good motives, but my action is still sinful. And we need to make sure that both of these things are lining up– that I would have a good motivation, as well as a good action themselves. As far as the intention is concerned, just to use an illustration: I can bring my wife flowers because we had a fight the night before, and I didn’t want to humble myself and repent for, you know, talking sharply or something like that. And now I’m doing something good, bringing her flowers, but my intention is to cover over, and not actually deal with things biblically. And so, we have to be very careful of how we, you know, engage in these types of things. We need to consider impact, as well—how these types of things impact our brother and sister. As I was saying before, even an indifferent action, I have to consider that. The Apostle Paul uses the meat sacrificed to idols—that’s the example I gave before. I can’t use my freedom in a way that harms my brother and sister. And so, if I’m using my freedom, and it causes my brother to stumble, well then, I need to give up my freedom because that impact is significant enough that I don’t I don’t want to harm my brother. And then as far as perception is concerned, I said that we need to avoid even the appearance of sin. But think about the Apostle Paul, in the book of 2 Corinthians that here, charges are basically being leveled against him about the super apostles, and does Paul’s Ministry really lineup? And is he as great as the super apostles? And instead of just dismissing it and saying: “who cares about people’s perceptions?”, the apostle Paul uses an entire book to address these concerns. And so, perceptions matter, and we have to be willing to hear one another out. So anyway, that’s just kind of fleshing out these additional categories a little bit more than just the action itself to say that Christianity views all of these as important. God views all of these categories as important, and He’s presenting that to us in the Scriptures.
Dale Johnson: Man, so helpful. Now let’s take this, you know, to a different practical level. So, we’ve got these things conceptually. As we think about these additional categories, help us to process if we can: our sinful actions against others as. So, how do we do that as a counselor? How would you help someone process these particular actions in a way to move toward biblical change or biblical help in their life?
Keith Evans: Yeah, I often see this in marriage counseling: That one party is arguing about the motive and intention: “My motives are pure, my intentions were good and therefore, everything is fine,” right? It’s like we’re dismissing the action based on pure motives and pure intentions. And the other party is saying “yes, but I’ve been really hurt and here’s how it appears to me,” right? So, they’re arguing from perception and arguing from impact. And there is an impact; and I think that there’s a benefit to just kind of flipping the script and saying, “Okay, Can we give the benefit of the doubt? Motives and intentions are pure.” That’s fine. Good motives and good intentions don’t actually baptize our actions and make them fine. Bad motives, or bad intentions, just make bad actions worse. But good intentions don’t just take everything away, or something. But can we hear the other person? Can we hear the hurt? Can we hear the perception? And can we address that? “You know, brother, I’m so sorry. I didn’t mean to hurt you—Of course, that wasn’t my motive and intention. (If that was, we’re dealing with a whole different category, right?) But you know, that was not my intention, but I see how that hurt you. Would you please forgive me? And I see how you perceive the situation; That’s, that’s not what I meant, but I see how you can see it from that vantage point. And I’m so sorry.” Right? We can move past conflict, by kind of flipping the script and seeing how the other person might be perceiving these things. So, instead of using these categories to downplay our sin: “my motives were good. My intentions were good.” We can actually use these categories to build bridges and cross some gaps or impasses that we find, even perhaps, in marriage counseling.
Dale Johnson: But Keith the example you gave—I’m sure you and I are probably the only people who have experienced that in our life. Like in my family, where my kids will do something, and say, “but I didn’t I didn’t mean to do that. I didn’t…” Well, look at the outcome. But okay, you didn’t intend to do that, I’ll give you that. But look at the outcome. Look at the behavior. Was the behavior pleasing? Were you really caring for your brother, your sister, whomever? We’re not the only people who have dealt with these types of things, right? This sort of thing happens all the time. Our listeners right now are thinking of ways in which, you know, we’re assessing our own life may be at a deeper level than we had before. And we’re acknowledging, man, this kind of stuff really does happen all the time. Thinking a little bit further about the ways that we downplay this, and then you know, as a counselee: How do we help a counselee not downplay and not excuse themselves? Because that’s often what’s happening. They’re trying to downplay these, you know, issues of intention, or motive, or even perception—the perception of how someone treated me. How do we help them avoid downplaying these things, in order to gain a good outcome? In the example that you use like with a marriage situation, or in family life, or you know another one, if you’re thinking about that as well.
Keith Evans: Absolutely, I just have to tell a story as we begin with that question. There was a time, as a father, I hear a crash in our living room, and I go in, and I see one of my children laying against a lamp in kind of a disaster. “Well, Daddy, I didn’t mean to.” And as the story came out, “Yes, but you did mean to climb up on the couch, and balance on one foot, on the arm of the couch,” you know. So that’s a childlike illustration, but don’t we do that in our adult like ways of trying to come up with all of these reasons why our motives are good, our intentions are good. As opposed to focusing on the aspects that can, we speak to as true. Okay, the action itself was displeasing to God, can we assess it from that category? The impact on my family was detrimental, can I own that? Can I speak in accord with the truth, in that regard? And then, the way I was perceived—I don’t want to be perceived that way, if that’s the way people are perceiving me, I need to get as far away from that as possible, because I want to walk in holiness. So again, we can use these categories as the way to excuse, to cover over, to conceal sin. Or we can use these categories as a way to speak, plainly and speak in accord with the truth, as the way the Lord would have us to speak. So, that’s where I’m trying to push us. And I would like to see us counsel in those ways. How can we accord with the truth as much as possible?
Dale Johnson: I love that. And I think what you’re describing is that these are some of the ways in which we find ourselves being protective of our own selves, right? And as dynamic as the Scripture is, it’s helping to alleviate, eliminate ways that we are crafty in our self-deception and our self-protection. And I think as counselors, we can be wise and savvy in how we approach these things. And then we can give appropriate biblical correction, when we encounter these things. It’s just that, every time we encounter stuff like this, I’m so amazed at the depth of Scripture and how it describes the wrestling’s of the human heart, and how that plays out in real life. And Keith, you’ve helped us today with these categories and to think about that, even further. So, thanks brother. I appreciate you being here, and we’ll talk to you soon.
Keith Evans: Thank you so much.
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