Dale Johnson: This week on the podcast I’m delighted to have with me Dr. Steven Yuille, he serves as professor of church history and spiritual formation at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. He is also the managing editor at Reformation Heritage Books as well as the preaching pastor at Grace Covenant Church in Granbury, Texas. Dr. Yuille is the author and editor of numerous books on English puritanism and biblical studies. He’s married to Allison, and they have two daughters. And more importantly, one grandson.
Stephen Yuille: And another on the way.
Dale Johnson: And we can celebrate that, so exciting. Man, as I think about this topic, hearing the voice within, this mysticism, I’m really eager to get into this. I see this very interesting movement, obviously in the mental health world and in Christendom more broadly, just this mystical, experiential, existential sort of movement. I’m interested to see, Dr. Yuille, how you’re going to tackle some of this. So, I want to talk about this idea of mysticism, what it means, it can be a confusing word with lots of different meanings and we’re certainly seeing this stuff thrown out right now. So, just give us some definitional parameters. What are we talking about when we are describing this concept of mysticism or hearing voices within?
Stephen Yuille: Yeah, a definition is a great place to start because it does get tricky coming out of history, I think perhaps that’s the best approach. When we think of mysticism there is such a thing as good mysticism. Many of the reformers and English Puritans, would have used the word, they would have spoken of mystical union with Christ, by that they mean our union with Christ by the Holy Spirit whereby, we become flesh of His flesh, Christ’s flesh. Flesh of His flesh and bone of His bone. And that has an experiential impact, Scripture begins to inform the mind, touches the heart, the affections; so, truth is felt. So, when it’s used in that sense, I think we would add a hearty, amen.
The problem is that historically that word mysticism is also used in an ontological sense. Now words, big, heady words—Ontology put simply is your theory of being and this idea in the history of Christianity that we somehow as believers, experience some sort of an ontological fusion with God. We become partakers of the divine nature. Not meaning merely, we become conformed to His likeness in terms of His character. But there is actually this coming together of our beings whereby we are lost in God. And this becomes the pursuit in many Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox traditions, the via negativa. The negative way as we approach this experience of union with God, when we’re lost in Him and actually become one with Him.
And so, we’d want to push back against that kind of mysticism. And although not so prevalent among evangelicals, there’s a third strand of mysticism, which is quite common today and we might label it, epistemological. How we know things, how we know God, how we know what is true, how we know what is good, how we know what is right. And yes, as evangelicals, we would hold up and champion God’s word, the Bible. But many within evangelicalism today also have this category for knowing God or knowing the will of God based on a still small voice within the heart and it’s an epistemological way I know God. Yes, His Word, but there is also something: a gust of emotion, a feeling, a nudge, something discernible, that I’m able to differentiate between what’s merely the stirrings of my own heart, and what is actually the stirring of the spirit of God. And this is how God communicates with me on the basis of the emotive feelings. So, that’s a tough way to start those categories. But so important, that they’re solidified in our minds. To avoid confusion, bring clarity to the discussion and define our terms.
Dale Johnson: Now, if we bring that forward, that’s the historical context and you’re giving sort of three parameters there that I think are really helpful for us to think about today. I want to drill down maybe a little bit on that final category that you gave. And maybe this is how we’re seeing this presented today in ways that are problematic. I honestly have no idea where you want to go, so feel free to go beyond that. But we talked a little bit about the history: Where did this come from? But talk about that last category a bit, where did the roots of those ideas, this epistemological mysticism come from? The specific beliefs and presuppositions that really brought this idea about.
Stephen Yuille: Again, just starting historically we see it in movements such as the radical anabaptists at the time of the Reformation. You see it later in the 1600s with George Fox in the Quakers and the pursuit of The Light Within. But really it gains momentum and becomes dominant within evangelical circles post Enlightenment, as you enter the 1800’s and then it has increased at an accelerated rate the past few decades. I think much of it is due to the influence of new age thinking and different expressions of Hinduism, Buddhism, Sufism, which is Islamic mysticism.
We are inundated with it. It has been around. It’s as old as time and rooted in this view of a spiritual world and a material world; we are somehow connected to the spiritual and have privy to intuitive knowledge that arises from this connection. So, those are factors that have undoubtedly contributed. Then in our own day I think a pushback against our naturalistic worldview—that we live within a closed arena of the biological—has given rise to materialism. That really the only reality is this the stuff we can handle and touch. There has been a real push back against that longing for the spiritual. But a spirituality that is not rooted in creed nor confession. But a spirituality that is basically essentially limited to how I feel and the advent of the preeminence of the emotions. So, there is a lot going on that has contributed to this, to bring us to the point, the juncture we are at with evangelicalism today.
Dale Johnson: So, you brought up evangelicalism and I think it’s important for us to dive down a little bit here. I’m thinking about this, in terms of revelation. Like we should be in some ways insulated from this mystical belief or movement, in part because of the way we see revelation, the way we understand revelation—that God’s word has been established. He has spoken, He’s not adding to that revelation. And so, when we hear from God, it is from His Word. It seems like we should be insulated from that, but why has this movement so impacted and maybe is so prevalent among evangelicals today?
Stephen Yuille: We should be immune to it, but we are not. I would pause at most evangelicals today, believing there are two streams of revelation: There is the revelation from God’s Word and there is of equal importance of revelation that takes place within the inner recesses of my soul. Whereby God speaks to me through my emotions and my feelings that is probably normative. When we think of big tent evangelicalism. I would argue, I would maintain that this is the normative position and how we got there—so many factors that really, I think feed into our cultural moment are the rise of selfism and the denial of objective truth of reality beyond the self, where by our highest authority has become how we feel. We have not been immune to that as evangelicals. We’re naive if we think we’ve stood against that. It has hit us like a tidal wave and is influencing us in innumerable ways and many of them undetected, even from within our own ranks.
Dale Johnson: Well, and we may respond to that by saying, you said it was among our own ranks and we’re like, “Oh, we don’t see that we’re not really concerned.” And sometimes we don’t get concerned about things until, “Oh, it’s impacting us directly.” But why should we care about this? Why do we see this kind of mysticism as a problem, especially in our context?
Stephen Yuille: You know, maybe the best way to answer that is with an example. I remember years ago, sitting in my office at the church and a gentleman in his 40s walked in and informed me he was divorcing his wife. Okay counseling moment if ever there is one, and I reach out my hand for God’s Word. And he just said, “Hold it right there, I know what that book says, but I’ve prayed about this, and God has given me peace. God has spoken. God has assured me that this is okay. By His sovereignty, He’s going to bring good out of evil. This will ultimately be for everyone’s good. Everyone’s glory.” There you go, conversation done. There is an “authoritative opinion” that is now influencing his decision, his engagement with the Word.
I can think of another instance of a brother, years ago, out of work for three or four months, needing a job. He’s got a mortgage, wife, and kids at home. He’s offered a position working nights and he turns it down. Why did he turn it down? Because he prayed about it and God didn’t give him a sense of peace. That’s gibberish. God didn’t give me a sense of peace; God hasn’t revealed His will to me on the basis of some gust of emotion that I have, or I don’t have. This brings it right down to the nitty-gritty, as we say, of life and pastoral ministry and engaging with fellow believers in our local churches.
This is how most people think they are absolutely convinced that they can identify something in their hearts, in the inner recesses of their soul, distinguishing it from every other feeling, and label it the voice of God. And they then base significant life decisions on it. And actually, I think that’s what it means to have a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus and resulting confusion and biblical counseling is just one component. This is one aspect of this, but it is huge. And I’m convinced even as people listen to our discussion, right now, many are probably thinking. “Yeah I’ve sat there, I’ve been there, I’ve heard that on multiple occasions.” And so, this has real relevance for making life decisions, for understanding what it really does mean to be a follower and a disciple of the Lord Jesus, as issues when it comes to authority in our lives and how we determine final authority. There are so many facets that when you open the lid here, all that’s there to see it is unending in many ways.
Dale Johnson: One more question and I’m thinking about this again in terms of revelation and how we think about God. And you have—I mean, I’ve been a member of the church you pastored, and the doctrine is solid. We state very clearly what we think about the Bible and its authority. That it’s the epistemological pinnacle in how we think about how we get knowledge from God. This is God’s word, its directive. But you have people who are in churches like that, but yet still are drawn to this mystical sort of belief and are motivated by this. You become sort of in response to them believing this is God’s authority, that He has spoken in some mystical way to them. I’m concerned about the opportunity cost here, when someone lives their life in the way that you just described in the two examples that you gave. What is the opportunity cost and how is that an affront to biblical revelation in the way that we understand it? Just help people to understand the implication if we say things and live the way you described in those examples. What does that by nature mean? And by implication, what are we really thinking about what God has delivered to us in his Word?
Stephen Yuille: The implications again, are manifold. One obvious implication is that it is an inherent denial of the authority and all sufficiency of Scripture. It just simply is, no matter how you try to slice it or explain it away through nuance, you can’t. It is ultimately a denial of the authority and all sufficiency of Christ. It also manifests a presupposition, and I think this is prevalent among many people. It is a motivating factor of this presupposition, that what is unknown is greater or more special than what is known. That there is something else out there, a secret, a mystery, a silver bullet that will somehow convince someone as to the veracity of the relationship with the Lord or to give meaning to life.
It’s just this basic operating system—this basic fundamental assumption, that what is unrevealed, what is hidden, is greater than what God has revealed. That too has huge theological ramifications for what we believe and how we live. I mean when you get into it, the dangers of it and some of the resultant problems. I think it creates and leads to such narcissism an overinflated sense of self-importance. Whereby, we begin to label our feelings, God. We’ve received communications from God. And we are elevating these revelations based on our feelings on par with or dare I say above Scripture. I think it undermines biblical wisdom and the cultivation of wisdom as displayed in James or Proverbs, throughout Scripture. And I think it also creates tremendous anxiety. As I engage with people on this subject it’s like it is a never-ending treadmill. We have convinced everyone that their life with God and having a personal relationship with Jesus and knowing true spirituality is somehow entering deep within their own soul, figuring out which of these feelings are supposed to label God, and make that determination in terms of every life decision they make—the spiritual angst and anxiety. Often when I have this discussion with people, I can see the relief in their eyes when this burden is removed, because so many people are on this never-ending treadmill, because they have created this false sense of what it means to have a meaningful relationship with God.
Dale Johnson: Brother, this has been so helpful. This type of thinking that you’re describing and what you’re making us aware of is very relevant, even in the biblical counseling world. And so, I pray that we’ll take some of these concepts and ideas and recognize when we see these things happening. The use of common grace insights for example, it’s very close to creating gnostic pursuit of what we think God’s will is or what God has revealed as a means to bring about human change that’s pleasing to God. That becomes something that’s gnostic, very mystical, and we arrive at it based on our human ingenuity and what we’re exalting then is the wisdom of man not the power of God. That’s a huge distinction when we get into those categories. So brother, thank you for leading us in this direction, recognizing this is something we’re all seeing, and helping us to think biblically about it.
Stephen Yuille: Great to be with you, as always.
