Dale Johnson: This week on the podcast I have with me Marshall Adkins. He serves as an assistant professor of biblical counseling at Spurgeon College and Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Kansas City, Missouri. So, a new colleague of mine, that I’m so grateful for. He’s also the assistant director of the center for biblical counseling at Midwestern. He’s married to Rachel, and they have three children. Brother, it is so good to have you here. I’m looking forward to this topic. This is one that maybe we don’t think about a lot, but we certainly encounter all the time. So grateful that you’re here with me.
Marshall Adkins: Thanks, Dale. Great to be here.
Dale Johnson: Now as we think about this particular issue, as I mentioned, we encounter this quite often. I mean, if you think about my visitations to the UK and the various denominations, and how differently those are structured. And I think about the different denominations we have here in the United States, and how differently those are structured. Most of them fall along lines that are distinctions in their theological commitments. And yet, here we are at ACBC— We’re attempting to have specific theological commitments, that do exceed very specific types of theological commitments that you would find within distinctions in denominations. And so, we’re going to find ourselves counseling all sorts of people. I’ll give you an example: I remember when I was counseling in my local church, we would have people from all sorts of persuasions. Maybe it was the Church down the street or church in another county that did not have any type of counseling ministry, and they heard that we were doing some decent work. And so, they started sending people to us. And before long, we were meeting with people who were often of very different theological persuasions. So, this is a real thing. And then, how do we approach these types of things? So, I want you to ease us in here. Let’s talk about some broad categories, and then we’ll get into some of the specifics. Talk first about the relationship between sound doctrine and counseling and why this this is so important. And you know, at times honestly, it can make it a little bit awkward when somebody has a different theological persuasion. So, talk about this relationship between sound doctrine and counseling itself.
Marshall Adkins: So, you’re right. This is certainly a real thing and happens in real life counseling situations. So, if we step back, sound doctrine is vital to counseling. In fact, doctrine drives our interpersonal ministry. And so, we are joyful to say that biblical counseling is based on faithful exposition of the Scriptures, and a faithful application of doctrine, that is rooted in the Bible; that is biblical doctrine. And so, that’s not a problem for us. That’s actually something that we joyfully affirm; that doctrine is not in the way of our counseling. We’re not trying to sidestep it. Instead, we believe that counseling is inherently theological— that counseling is an applied theology. This is actually true of all counseling, not just a Biblical approach to counseling, not just biblical counseling. And so whatever system of counseling or whatever therapeutic framework that you’re observing or that you’re considering— it is all based on theological presuppositions. And so, this is something that is not just true of biblical counseling. It’s true of all counseling. The difference is that if it’s not biblical counseling, it’s based on bad theology and false doctrine. And so, it’s vital that our counseling methodologies and our counseling content is growing out of faithful biblical doctrine and faithful theological commitments. And so, our doctrine like the doctrine of salvation, the doctrine of sin our doctrine of Scripture— these things are not incidental or peripheral. They’re central to the way we think about and the way we approach counseling and the counseling relationship.
And so just to clarify, when we say this, that doesn’t mean that counseling sessions become systematic theology classes. And it doesn’t mean that, you know, we’re keeping it at an abstract level or in an obscure place. Instead, we’re taking truths and doctrines of Scripture and teasing out the implications of those truths with real people in real situations, as we’re trying to help them face the problems of life in ways that please God and bring Him glory. And if you want to think about examples of this, you know whole books of the New Testament, like the letters of Paul; you think of the letters of Ephesians. Oftentimes, it’s divided into two categories, right? You have the imperatives on the latter end. You have the indicatives in the former half. So, what’s Paul doing? Well, he’s explicating doctrine, and then he’s applying that doctrine in particular ways. So, many of the occasional aspects of these letters could be described similarly. You think of like a low-hanging fruit, for example: In 1 Thessalonians 4, where Paul’s talking about the return of our Lord. And he’s doing that in the context of comforting the grieving, encouraging them, and bringing hope to them. And so, these doctrines are being explicated. They’re being taught and then applied. The implications of these doctrines are being brought to bear to meet the need of the moment in providing care, and counsel, and discipleship to people. And so, a couple of staple texts that we could even consider briefly together— and when I say staple text staple, I mean a staple text of the biblical counseling movement. Think about for example, in Ephesians chapter 4 a very familiar text to us as biblical counselors. Well, Paul here is talking about this idea of people being tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine. Then in verse 15, the next verse, he says “rather speaking the truth in love, so we are to grow up in every way into Him who is the head into Christ.” So, part of our interpersonal ministry actually is to remedy wrong living that is flowing from wrong ideas about God. Wrong beliefs about God and His word lead to wrong ways of living in the world. And so, we’re speaking the truth in love to help bring truth and implications of that truth to bear in the lives of people. We could also look at Colossians in the end of chapter 1, going into chapter 2, where Paul is saying: “we proclaim Christ,” in verse 1:28. Warning, here’s noutheteo: counseling, admonition, warning everyone. And what else, teaching everyone with all wisdom. What kind of wisdom is that? What we did, he defines it in chapter two— that’s the treasures of wisdom and knowledge that are in Christ. And in verse 6, he says, “As you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, rooted and built up in him established in the faith. Just as you were taught.” So, my point and what I’m saying here is that sound doctrine is vital to counseling. And our interpersonal ministry in many ways involves this teaching component, where we are helping people to live according to the truths of God’s Word.
Dale Johnson: Yeah. Don’t forget verse 8. I want you to read verse 8, right there in Colossians chapter 2, because he’s talking about what is going to guard us against that’s right empty philosophies in vain deceptions. And he’s talking about how the wisdom of God that is going to accomplish that. I think what you’re getting at, is really what becomes a major distinction within how we approach the idea of counseling itself. And if we can nail this idea down, this is what helps us to see the depth, and the breadth, and the beauty of the sufficiency of Scripture, in the way that it speaks to how we were made as human beings— That we practice based on the things that we believe are real and true. And so, what needs to be corrected is our faulty understanding about reality. And often that’s a faulty understanding about God, and therefore a faulty understanding of creation, and how we are to respond, and what our role, purpose, and responsibility is in the world. We see the residual fall out of emotions and behaviors that are unwanted. And that’s a part of what we’re seeing. Let me give you an example, Marshall: You alluded to a couple of these different sound doctrines. Listen, what you believe when you do marriage counseling, what you believe to be true about the Scripture’s teaching; Okay and now, we’re not into some mystical thing outside. Whatever you believe to be true about Scripture’s teaching, for example on issues of marriage, divorce, and remarriage—that’s going to matter in how you go about counseling. This is why it’s important for you, within your church setting, to have an understanding of “what is my church’s teaching. How do we think about this? Scripturally? Is this something that is a Biblical position.” Because you know, the way I’m going to move forward with this will be dictated by what I think pleases God, in even difficult marriage situations. So that’s just one example where we can see this is the case, but we can extrapolate that into, you know, into thousands of examples where we can see doctrine is so important. So, let’s talk about this if we can, in a couple of different ways, maybe you know, how do we ease into approaching situations where people come from a different theological background? How should we approach those folks, particularly in a counseling relationship?
Marshall Adkins: First of all, we’re glad they’re there. We’re glad they’re coming. And you know, maybe I can frame I answer around the key elements of counseling. So first, you know, we’re wanting to build involvement and establish a relationship with the person that has come. We may discover very quickly that we’re immediately doing pre-counseling evangelism. So, this may not be a doctrinal difference along a denominational line; this may be that a person who’s involved in some sort of false religion, a cult, etc. Well, obviously, then we’re evangelizing. We’re going to relate to that person as someone who does not know Christ— that they need to hear the true gospel. They need to be evangelized and called to faith and repentance. And so that may be the case, maybe pre-counseling evangelism. However, there may be many, many occasions, and these are the ones that we have been talking about up to this point, where it’s a genuine believer as far as you can tell. You know, they have a credible profession of faith and understanding of the Gospel, but they may have been either not discipled or they may have been discipled with aberrant theology, bad theology. And so here I think is where, you know, we’re wanting to build involvement, and then begin to gather data as to where our part of the data gathering is in an intensive way as: Where are the defections and the departures from the truths of Scripture? And discerning, where are the areas of unbiblical thinking that need to be replaced with biblical truth? Where do they have a wrong view that needs to be replaced with God’s view? Whatever that relates to. And realizing that not every doctrinal issue will be addressed in counseling. Not every doctrinal issue can be sorted out within the counseling relationship.
And then also, something that came to mind is watching out for what we might call red herrings. In other words, you may be counseling someone in this and the counselee, he is eager to talk about the Nephilim, but they don’t want to talk about their sin, or you know, repentance and faith in Christ. So, you’re trying to gather data, and you’re discerning: “Okay, where are the areas of unbiblical thinking that maybe need to be addressed with biblical truth?” And then you know, I think we teach Colossians 1:28. We come in with targeted specific biblical instruction, not just telling them, but showing them, let’s open the Bible. “Here’s what the Bible says. Let’s read the Scripture together and bring its truth to bear” and I would say, I would add that I think, that there are certain truths that are recurrent and prominent in the counseling relationship. And I wonder if you would agree, Dale. For example, I know you’d agree with many of these, but the gospel. We’re going to talk to every counselee about the gospel. We’re going to talk about the progressive aspect of sanctification. We’re going to talk about the heart. We’re going to talk about the put-on off, put-on dynamic. We’re going to talk about the nature of true repentance. We’re going to talk about temptation, God’s purposes in our trials, and you know, forgiveness. You know, if it’s marriage counseling: God’s design for men and women in the marital relationship. And so, there are certain things that are just going to be brought to bear. If there’s aberrant thinking, unbiblical thinking related to those, then we’re going to teach them what the Scripture says, so that they can be rooted and grounded in the faith. And then, we will show them the implications of these truths that we’re teaching: why it really does matter and why you can’t just go around these truths. That’s not what at all we’re trying to do. We are trying, from the Scriptures themselves, to draw out the truth of Scripture and bring its implications to bear in the counseling relationship.
Dale Johnson: And I think that’s so critical, whether we’re talking about settling the soul in relation to issues of comfort, or whether we’re talking about settling the soul in terms of correction— it is a Scripture that’s intended to do that. I like the way that you phrase that. I had an old professor who would say the same thing: “it is our job is to sit in the counseling room and listen for unbiblical thinking, that has now led to unbiblical implication, which is living in emotions and life. And we correct it with Biblical truth.” We’re doing that not in subtle ways, but we’re doing that as we hear how they’re processing life, how they’re viewing reality, and how they’re trying to make sense of their world. And does that correspond with what the Bible describes is reality? And this is where I start to see unfold in the counseling room exactly what David Palace used to describe is that “the Bible explains a person’s experiences better than any other system.” And so, the Bible actually encapsulates the story of this person’s life— whether it be for good or for evil. It can explain why they’re wrestling in soul. And if it can explain that, it can certainly help them to understand how their soul can be settled and be at rest. And that’s a part of what we’re doing here. And that’s really critical. One other point before we move on is that our job is not to give our opinion about something, right. So, what we’re trying to do is to appeal to God, because how that person will see themselves, more clearly than any other way, is when they see themselves before the perfect Law of Liberty. The Scripture makes clear that that’s when we see ourselves most clearly, when we see our self in front of God’s word. And so that’s what’s most important is: Can we appeal to Scripture to really help them to see what’s going on in their life?
Maybe a final bit, because this is really important. I mean, we hold to the importance of the church. We hold to the importance of the authority of the church in the role of soul care and overseeing, and being responsible to God for the keeping and shepherding of souls. So, describe a little bit about the role of the local church in this discussion about theology distinctions, in theological background, and how that should guide us in the counseling room.
Marshall Adkins: Yeah, so, you know, we’re going to enter in, and we want to be courageous and convictional, and at the same time gentle, and humble, and patient. You know, thinking of like first Thessalonians 5: where we’re being patient with them all. And Galatians 6: with humility and gentleness. And we’re bringing the truth of God’s word to bear. But we’re also realizing that the counseling relationship is not the totality of their discipleship. And so, we are wanting to move them toward, and push them forward into the ordinary means of grace. You know, gentle, patient, coming alongside them, but not in a way that is going to replace what God means for them to have in terms of their overall relationship to the local church. So meaningful church membership is vital here. Are they, on the Lord’s Day, sitting under the faithful preaching of God’s Word? Are they entering into meaningful discipleship relationships? Are they participating in the life of the local church in a way that’s going to promote their ongoing growth and discipleship, where they’re being rooted and grounded in the faith? And so, while we’re going to unearth and address many issues within the context of the counseling relationship, we’re never doing that apart from, disconnected from, or without an eye toward the local church and God’s design for it.
Dale Johnson: Marshall, I think this it’s absolutely critical. And this is something we need to continue to think about. Because we want to be kind and gentle with those who come from a different theological persuasion. But oftentimes, what I’ve seen is that maybe they have not thought about how important some sort of theological truth is in its implication for their life at this particular moment. And you know, your discussion in relation to the church is absolutely critical when we think about the church’s authority, and how we want to make sure that we’re being consistent with the overall teaching, because ultimately the elders are the ones who God has given that authority and role; They’re going to be held accountable. And so, we need to be consistent in the ways that we’re thinking there. That is very helpful discussion. I think, very practical; It is one that we face. If you do any amount of counseling, you’re going to face this pretty frequently. So, I encourage you to think more deeply about this. Marshall, thank you for leading us into this area.
Marshall Adkins: And my joy.
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