Dale Johnson: This week on the podcast, I have with me Manuel Herrera. Manny is an ACBC certified counselor. He’s a part of the Spanish biblical counseling ministry, at Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California. He also graduated from medical school in Mexico, and I will also tell you that he is a musician. I was with him in Argentina and got to hear his skill, ability, and gifting from the Lord in music. It has been good to get to know you, Manny. Welcome to the podcast, brother.
Manuel Herrera: Thank you so much, it has been a blessing to be here with you.
Dale Johnson: Well, it’s fun as we think about the different contexts that the Lord puts us in. You, as I mentioned, are at Grace Community Church in Los Angeles, California; What a maybe not just bicultural, but Multicultural context. And you know that brings different challenges. The truth of the word of God never changes, no matter the time, place, or historical period we find ourselves in. But we see that sometimes those experiences that we have can be a little bit different in how we view them, because of cultural background or whatever. So, I want you to talk a little bit about this. Your experience in this area being from Mexico yourself and now living in the US in a very Multicultural context. What’s been your experience? Maybe just help us here, in counseling in a bicultural or multicultural context.
Manuel Herrera: Yeah, thank you for asking about this particular issue. In first, I would like to mention that by bicultural or Multicultural– I mean, in a society or ministry, where people live in a context where inside the home, it’s lived in one way and outside the home, it’s lived in a very different way. So here, as you mentioned in the United States, as we know, there are several places where there is a concentration of immigrants from other countries, and therefore from other cultures as well. So personally, when I first moved to Los Angeles from Mexico to study at the Seminary, I never thought that I would have this multicultural experience, in particular. I never imagined that I would get to try so much variety of international food, either.
Dale Johnson: That’s not a bad thing.
Manuel Herrera: Yeah, absolutely. It’s not. But anyway, that’s God’s grace, that He always gives us without deserving. And so back to the point, the church where I serve, as you mentioned, is Grace Community Church. It is a beautiful Church where the impact of the gospel and expository preaching, primarily from our Pastor, John MacArthur. Many of you know of this rich multicultural society in Los Angeles, and this is a great blessing. And in particular, as you know, I focus primarily on the Spanish-speaking church. This is where I want to focus our conversation. When we talk about the Spanish-speaking church, it not only involves language, but also culture. So, to answer your question, my experience in counseling in a bicultural or multicultural context, as we live here has been, and is beautiful and also challenging at the same time. So, beautiful in the sense that the Lord has allowed me to appreciate how He allows us to enjoy this certain cultural identity, which is nothing more than the grace of God that He gives to the man to think, to create, to live, and coexist in different ways. And the way that we Latin Americans express ourselves, for example, it’s a very particular and distinctive.
Some dear American brothers and sisters have told me that, we Latinos, are always having conversations about food. So, either way, it’s beautiful to learn from diverse cultures and ways of living. But at the same time, it is challenging. First, it is challenging when you are in a country with a different culture. And second, when you are dealing with aspects that transcend culture. And I mean eternal aspects, concerning eternal life. So, I think the biggest temptation you have when you live in a bicultural context, is when you want to justify your life and behavior based on that context. And that’s what I’ve seen several times; the temptation to say, “well, let’s just the way we Latinos are,” or “In my country, we do it this way,” or “In my house we live in this way,” etc. And this aspect only feeds victimism. I have realized that many times, we justify our sins because of aspects of our culture. So, this is a good reminder that the word of God is above any cultural worldview. And His word is what men need for all matters of life and godliness—regardless of any cultural context. So, the Lord has allowed me to learn this reality this last year in the counseling room, and it has been a blessing.
Dale Johnson: I agree. I think that’s been one of the most exciting things that I’ve done is being in different cultures, different places. And, you know, you learn a lot about your own cultural biases, right? Things that I thought, growing up as a young man in the context that I lived in, were normal and everybody sort of grew up like that. And, you know, you learn very quickly when you travel internationally, or you’re around folks from other cultures, that that’s quite different. Now one of the things that we might be concerned about in a discussion like this, we might say, “Well if we start talking about cultural sensitivities, are we going to compromise the truth of Scripture? Are we going to, you know, not address something that the Scripture says, because we’re afraid of how it might be really responded to from a cultural perspective or how it might be received?” So, I want you to talk for a second about the importance of us trying to be culturally sensitive in a biblical counseling context, and how that sensitivity can be cultivated, so that it doesn’t compromise that unchanging truth.
Manuel Herrera: This is important because I think cultural sensitivity in biblical counseling is an important issue, because it enables the counselor to better understand the experience, values, and cultural context of the person’s being counseled. So, this facilitates effective communication and practical application of biblical principles to individual situations. However, of course, it is essential to maintain a balance between what you mentioned, cultural sensitivity, and fidelity to biblical truth, ensuring that any cultural adaptation doesn’t compromise the fundamental principles of God’s work. So, I think, when we cultivate this cultural sensitivity in biblical counseling, it is very essential that the counselor relies on the wisdom and guidance of the Holy Spirit. I think that’s the key point, and to always keep the authority and the truth of God’s word as the central foundation of our counseling. So, perhaps the strongest reasons why we have a Spanish ministry at Grace Community Church is because we want to better serve and shepherd the Hispanic church, where not only the language that is involved, but also the culture and in particular in this counseling Ministry so in God’s grace and sovereignty, we can enjoy cultural diversity and see it as a means to better serve Christ’s Church and teach the word in a more applicable way.
Dale Johnson: I love that. As we think about, we start in the place where there’s uncompromising truth, there are things that I would call non-negotiables scripturally, that are never not true. I understand that was a double negative point of emphasis; there are certain things in Scripture that will never be untrue, and that’s what we’re clinging to. Then, we’re going to apply that into a culturally sensitive manner. I think that’s helpful. I’m going to give you an example before I lead into my next question. You don’t have to interact with the example itself, but this is one of the places where I saw what a radical difference culture made and how it impacted a particular counseling situation. I remember being in a certain location that was certainly not the US, and not from where I’m from. And I was doing a seminar, and in this seminar, there was a couple who was sitting there, and they were talking about the issue of guilt and shame. And this was a more shame-based society, and these people were first generation believers. So, they had never viewed believers interact in marital union together or what marriage was actually intended to look like from a biblical perspective. And they were describing some of the ways that were social norms, very cultural norms. The other people in the room as they were describing how the wife would respond, when she was shamed, and they were sort of applauding her, even though the way she was responding was probably quite sinful, and may be driven by jealousy or bitterness, to some degree.
And it was interesting for me to watch that unfold, because a couple of things happened with cultural norms. Number one, as you mentioned, they can build excuses. But number two, I think what happens, is that the conscience of that point is more informed by the culture than it is by the Bible, to some extent. That was one of the things like, okay, how do not try to promote an American way of thinking about marriage? How do we think about this biblically? Because I don’t want to affirm their cultural norms; I certainly don’t want to just make it an American, because how do we think about this? How do we inform the conscience from the Scripture? So, we’re trying to eliminate the excuses of the culture, but we’re also trying to inform their conscience biblically. So, that that sort of leads me to a question that’s a little bit more specific. Just some of my experiences. That was one of the challenges that I faced as a Biblical counselor. So, what are some specific challenges that a Biblical counselor might face when we work with people who are from different cultures and different ethnic backgrounds? We just need to be aware of these things, and you’ve certainly seen that in your context here in LA.
Manuel Herrera: Yeah, I think the biggest challenge here is definitely the cultural mix that we live in. And what I mentioned a moment ago, living in a different cultural context than that you are living in at home. So, the influence you have in both directions is very particular, you know, because of how you live inside your house and how you live outside your house. But at the same time, I see it as an excellent opportunity to direct the counselee to the sufficiency of the Scripture. And I’m going to mention that later. So, I think, effective communication can definitely be hindered by language and cultural barriers, which makes mutual understanding difficult, as you can see right now. So, that is why I appreciate having the opportunity to serve in biblical counseling to the Spanish-speaking church, and to see how ACBC is growing in this particular area. This is the grace of God to serve our church. And many of our Latin brothers and sisters here in our context in Los Angeles speak English, because we are in America and they can communicate without problems. But sometimes in serious situations, such as issues that are dealt with in the counseling room, which I call sensitive issues, it helps a lot to be able to speak the native language and to be able to minister the word of God in their language. That’s very important and even more so, if Spanish is the heavenly language, if we speak Spanish in the heavens.
Dale Johnson: That’s good. The Lord is going to teach me Spanish then.
Manuel Herrera: Absolutely. Okay. So, anyway, another challenge I have noticed is in the religious background. This is very particular. Some believers grew up in certain countries where Roman Catholicism is the predominant religion, as it is the case here in our Latin American countries. And certain life situation, even now as believers, can be influenced by that cultural context. This concept of marriage, parenting, etc. is influenced by Roman Catholicism. It’s a very particular to understand, to lead the counseling to a Biblical perspective. I would say another example is to understand how the family context works; In some countries, matriarchy and this passivity or machismo become predominant. So, this can help in the process of obtaining information as well as interpreting information in the counseling room. This is very helpful when you know that background. Also, knowledge of the culture of biblical counseling, since in many Latin evangelical contexts biblical counseling is still unknown or unexplored. Then the counselees need to be introduced to the need of biblical counseling. That is also very important to consider. And with all this in mind, I want to make it clear that just because these aspects are important to understand, that doesn’t mean that it’s a mandatory requirement at the moment of counseling. So, it doesn’t mean that I need to have been raised in the same cultural context to be able to counsel someone biblically. So, this bicultural experience has also allowed me to see how the word of God transcends any culture background.
Dale Johnson: But I think that’s a really important statement, that the word of God helps us see how it transcends any culture. One of the coolest things that I get to do is go to different places and I speak through a translator. And as you can probably tell, I’m from the south part of America, and we have some colloquialisms or phrases that we use. And sometimes, just naturally, I start to say those things, and the translator will look at me because they’re like, “Man, I don’t even know what you’re saying.” And so, we have to make sure, okay, the point is not that you say the words that I say, because that wouldn’t translate; the people would not understand. And the whole point is, man, I want them to understand some of the things I’m talking about. So, we want to make sure that we’re describing the context. You know, counseling is a lot like that. So, sometimes when there are cultural differences, ethnic differences, even within a marriage—If you have ethnic differences or cultural differences, it is important to make sure you slow the process down, to make sure you as the counselor are understanding what’s actually happening. Because you can be speaking the same language, but maybe there’s a vocabulary that you know, that they don’t know, or that they are using in slang, that you have no idea what that means. And the point is the meaning of something. So, when they’re describing this distress or problem that they’re having, make sure that you, as the counselor, understand this well. And then, you know, what you’re saying when you give counsel back—making sure that they understand what you’re saying, right.
That is, I think, one of the points of Ephesians 4:29, when the Scripture says, “let no unwholesome communication proceed from your mouth, only such a word that’s edifying, and it brings grace to the one who hears.” Part of the point of that passage, among other things, is to speak in a way that’s beneficial to the other person. Well, you have to think, okay, let me slow down and make sure that they’re understanding what I’m trying to get across to them. And that’s not, you’re not dumping something down. The idea is like their heart language is something else. So, we got to make sure we’re on the same page. And that’s really important in the process. And you have to slow the process down, to make sure that you understand their story and that any counsel you give is understood in its proper way, because a lot can get lost in translation. And so, we need to be careful about that now. I think you’ve raised some really wonderful points, helping to make us aware of some of the pitfalls. Because these things are genuine and legitimate, and we need to be cautious and aware of those. But let’s talk specifically about some practical strategies. So, describe some of the practical strategies that we can use as biblical counselors to address and reconcile the tensions between cultures, between some of the cultural norms and some biblical teaching, as we try to go through the counseling process to help this person achieve change, encouragement, comfort, reconciliation, whatever the need is for the moment.
Manuel Herrera: Yeah. Well, the first thing is to look at this as an opportunity that the Lord provides to better serve His church in that particular community or cultural context, that you mentioned. And we want to reach the heart of the counselee. We want to engage with them wisely in order to help them in this biblical process of change. So, I think it helps with involvement, definitely. And we also went to exalt the sufficiency and authority of the Scripture above any cultural aspect of life. The biblical counselor should strive to understand the local culture, the social norms, and the prevailing beliefs–all with one main purpose– to exalt the word of God and its efficiency above and beyond any cultural context. So, another strategy, I would say, would be to adapt biblical instruction to be relevant and understandable, within the specific cultural context, as you mentioned. And I want to be careful with this; I don’t mean compromising God’s truth, or selecting just certain portions of Scripture that would be more appropriate to specific cultural context, and others, etc. I mean to make sense of it as Ezra did it by reading the book of The Law of God in a clear way, as we see in Nehemiah 8. So, with this in mind, I think it’s important to emphasize the universal biblical principles, that transcend cultural differences in are applicable in all circumstances. So, I also would say another strategy would be to think about homework, assignments, more, practical way—that allow us to develop better practical, biblical habits. I have noticed, when I got my certification, I did the whole process in English. Now it’s a blessing that we can do that in Spanish, the whole process certification. And sometimes I found the homework very useful and practical for the counselees, but they are not very appropriate for Latinos, who are a specific people. So, we want to be wise. And we want to apply biblical principles, in such a way that we can bless our counselees and better help them. So, remembering how important homework assignments are in our biblical counseling process. And then finally, I would say it is important to continually seek the guidance and discernment of the Holy Spirit. We are facing situations that might be influenced by cultural aspects, or when applying biblical teaching wisely, remembering that the Holy Spirit is the counselor and is the one who discerned the heart over the culture.
Dale Johnson: And you can apply that in many, many languages as well.
Manuel Herrera: Absolutely.
Dale Johnson: You know, I’m reminded that even as we’re talking of Revelation chapters 5, 7, and 9—That there will be people around the throne from every tribe, nation, language and tongue. What that means is that the word of God transcends culture. And that what the word of God produces in the hearts of people, is the glory of God. And that’s the change that has to happen in us. So that our lives glorify God and not ourselves. And if that’s the case in the end, then the Lord can use us in ways that are even in multicultural, bicultural, multi-ethnic situations, with the beauty of the Word. We just have to slow down. We have to make sure we’re understanding some of the nuances and try to address those as best we can. Because the byproduct of the Word can be that anybody, in any language, nation, tribe, and tongue can and bring glory to the Lord. Man, it’s been fun. Thank you, brother.
Manuel Herrera: Thank you.
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