Dale Johnson: This week on the podcast, I have with me Pastor Josh Greiner. He’s originally from Indiana and went to Purdue University, where he received his B.A. in political science. During his time at Purdue, he received biblical counseling from Faith Church in Lafayette, Indiana, and he was introduced to the biblical counseling movement. After graduating from Purdue, one of the pastors on staff encouraged him to consider going into the ministry. And eventually, he enrolled in Faith Bible Seminary, where he received his MDiv. And while at Faith, he met his wife Shanna, and they have four children. After spending ten years on staff at Faith, Josh now serves as the lead pastor of Berean Baptist in Portage, Michigan. He was certified in 2009 with ACBC and serves as a fellow with ACBC. He teaches in the MABC program at Faith Bible Seminary. Josh, again, welcome to the podcast. So grateful for your time with us. I am looking forward to this discussion on confessing hidden sins.
Josh Greiner: It’s great to be with you here today, Dale. I appreciate the opportunity.
Dale Johnson: Josh, as we look at this, this is always sort of one of those dream moments as a counselor—when the Lord just has a specific situation that arises, and we see a counselee moving in a direction, that is a very biblical posture to confess sins. But the very nature of these things being hidden makes it somewhat difficult. So, I want to start trying to work through this in a biblical fashion, for us to understand how to go about this, or how to facilitate this with a counselee. I want to see, what are some of the biblical examples that we’re describing? This will help us to understand what we’re talking about here when we talk about hidden sins. So, can you give an example from Scripture of when we see hidden sin and how we might approach that in the counseling room?
Josh Greiner: Well, I mean, when I think about the most obvious hidden sin in Scripture, that was hidden and is revealed—this is David and Bathsheba, right? I mean that sin was hidden, and he was confronted. We’re not always as counselors going to have divine revelation like that. He was confronted and it was exposed. And really, that confession, that bringing out of the hidden sin because we know that bringing hidden sin out is biblically required. Over and over again, we’re told to confess our sins to God and to others who would be impacted. So, as counselors, why should we want hidden sin to be brought out? Because it’s biblically required. But number two, it also is going to aid in that restoration process that’s going on, right? We see that in David, that him bringing the sin out into the open where it wasn’t before that, that is aiding in his spiritual growth. Imagine for a moment if that had been allowed to linger. David’s not the only example, right? We could look to the church at First Corinthians and the sin that they were dealing with as well. But the point being confession, bringing it out helps with our restoration. It is required, but it aids in our sanctification process. And then third, it just kind of moves us to future growth, right? If we’re hoping to grow to become more like Christ, but we’re hiding this sin. We’re keeping it back. And I think that keeping is intentional. It’s volitional. It’s purposeful. We all have sinned that we’re just not aware, that we’re blinded to. That God in His mercy doesn’t always reveal to us. Every aspect of our sin in the moment of sanctification, that would be overwhelming to any of us. But there are areas in our counselee’s lives, and possibly even in our lives, that we keep hidden. And by bringing those out intentionally, that is going to aid in our future spiritual growth. So, that’s the pattern that we see in the Bible, that we see in the life of David, and others. I think that’s why, as counselors, this is an important topic for us.
Dale Johnson: Yeah, I think well said, and there’s a reason that these things are hidden. It could be because, “man, this is really embarrassing to think that, you know, people think I’m a great guy, but this is sort of going on in the background.” And “man, for me to confess something like that…” It remains hidden, but there could be a lot of reasons: maybe we believe a lie that it’s better if it just remains in the dark and no one else really knows. No one else is affected by these things. I mean, these are the types of ways that we as human beings rationalize and keep things in the dark and keep things hidden, even in the example that you used with King David. Now, as we go to the counseling room, and we try to address some of these particular reasons—I want you to help us to think through some of the goals of confession. So, when we find a person coming to that place where hidden sin is revealed, they are beginning in the process. Maybe we see confession and repentance or we’re on the cusp of that. What are some of the goals of confession? What are some of the main reasons that a person might pursue confession?
Josh Greiner: Yeah, and first of all, I would just say I’m borrowing a lot of this from Ken Sande, and he has done a lot of good work done in and around these topics. So, in borrowing a lot of that, I think the first thing that we’re thinking about is we want to say the same thing that God says. I think if we are just careful observers of what’s happening in the counseling room, so many times, we see people kind of want to muddle around the issue. I don’t want to say, “okay, why is this biblically wrong? How is God describing it? They just want to say, “well, it was wrong of me to do this or that.” We want to say the same thing that God says, right? That’s literally what confession is all about. So, our goal is that if God says something about this, we want to say the same thing about it.
And number two, we want to be transparent and specific with those parties that have been affected. So many times, we might have told someone the truth and brought out some hidden sin, but we didn’t bring it out to the right party. Now, it’s not the job of that party that’s been told to go telling around on others. There’s a place for that in church discipline, but we’re not talking about that right now. So, encouraging them with, “Okay, you told me this, but a lot of times we need to go to the person that’s being affected or impacted.” It could be a spouse, a friend, or a brother in Christ. I do think there is a balance, you know. You kind of mentioned some of these dynamics around hidden sin. There has to be a balance when it comes to sexual sin, and that could kind of be an entire topic all to itself. But there has to be a balance in marriage, and when you’re counseling someone who’s not married about what needs to be confessed in the counseling room. There’s probably going to be some principles that guide us around specifics of confession, just because we don’t need to necessarily hear all of that. And the point is, we need to be specific. We need to be transparent about: What did we do? How did it impact us?
And in that confession, thirdly, we can’t be defensive. Sometimes when we’re confessing and telling others what happened, we’re kind of excusing ourselves. Like, “here’s what I did and here’s why I did it.” And that’s just a tendency in human nature. Even in the moments of our humbling, we’re still trying to defend ourselves. So, we have to encourage, and we have to shepherd our counselees: “Don’t be defensive in your confession. Own It. Own it 100%, brother or sister.” I do sometimes think it can be very helpful, especially when you’re dealing with conflict with people, is having individuals write out their confession. Write these things out word for word. I think it can just be a tendency of ours where many words are sin is not absent, right? We are fighting with our flesh. So, helping your counselee walk through it: “What are you going to say to that person that you have sinned against—Since you spoke evilly to them, and you mistreated them, let’s write that out together and let’s review it to make sure that it is what God would say. On the same thing with that, let’s make sure that what you’re trying to do here is accomplishing its goals. And, and sometimes one of the best ways to do that is to write it out, sometimes even word for word.” And then, lastly, I think, as we’re doing this confession, we’re trying to say the same thing God says, making sure that we’re not defensive. I often encourage people: “You want to weave God’s word in this story that you’re telling. Where do you see it wrong in the Scriptures? Where do you see the direction that you’re heading? Where does Scriptures call us?” Biblical counseling, if it’s guiding people into biblical confession, ought to find biblical passages that are helping us see: Why was this problematic? And where does God’s word speak on this issue? And so, when Scriptures are silent in confession, then I think often we’re missing something there.
Dale Johnson: And that raises a question for me. And I appreciate you pointing us to Scripture here and finding passages of Scripture that are clear and that we’ve breached in a given moment. And that Confession is necessary, and we’re tying those two things together. That leads me to think about key principles that are key elements of confession. This is difficult in the counseling room, where we don’t know the full story of what’s going on. This is a hidden sin for a reason, but there are particular elements that we’re wanting to see in terms of confession: Is this something that is genuine? And sometimes it’s hard to know. So, Josh, help us to think through some of those key elements from Scripture that we should see in terms of a genuine confession.
Josh Greiner: Yeah, I mean, I think confession is that first step on the path to repentance. So, there are some people don’t mind telling you all the ways that they’ve sinned. And then, they’ll come back next week and tell you again all the ways that they have sinned, and they’re not really interested in change. And so, I think with confession, we’re talking about bringing something into the light. With that first step of bringing it into the light, what that person is saying, and what you’re trying to get them to say, is, “We’re looking for change.” And really, now what we’re talking about is: What does it look like for someone to truly repent? And again, this is actually the bread and butter of biblical counseling. The passage that I tend to use the most when trying to articulate this to someone, because they might bring it out and tell us something, and then there’s just kind of thinking, “I am remorseful. That is it, right?” And I’m thinking no, let’s go to Ephesians 4. we’re going to walk through verses 20-24. Then, let’s really answer this question: When is a thief no longer a thief? We’re going to go to verse 28. And people are puzzled at that question. When is a thief no longer a thief? Now, I didn’t invent that question, right. That questions been circulating in biblical counseling for plenty of time. But we can help them see that a thief is no longer a thief. And now when he stopped stealing—you have to stop stealing, right? Whatever you’re doing, you have to stop doing that. You’ve even got to have that change in your thinking. But the thief is no longer a thief, when he works hard so that he has something to give. And that’s really what we’re trying to get our counselors to do: You brought your sin out into the light, I’m thankful for that. But ultimately, when is a thief no longer at thief? Well, it’s not when you are no longer doing that. It’s not just when you put off the activity, it is when you have put on the new.
Dale Johnson: That’s really helpful and really gives us some categories by which to think and aim for our counselee to press them toward true, legitimate, biblical change where we’ve seen the Spirit do its work in their hearts. And as we think about this a little bit further, I’m reminded, Josh, of several specific cases of my own dealing with counselees. And it’s always interesting that I’ve seen counselees, like you mentioned earlier, who are willing to confess in lots of different ways. They confess the things that are known, and I found myself like, “man, counseling is not progressing.” But these people are confessing certain sins, and it’s like, “wow, why is this not progressing?” Come to find out later, by the Lord’s providence, he reveals more, and more, and more of that which was hidden. And they’re willing to confess what’s known, but they’re also wanting to hide those things that are underneath the surface. I want you to talk a little bit about how do we help a counselee and encourage them to confess sin that they’re hiding, and not to just get comfortable with confessing known sins—maybe the presenting problem that are arising because of evident sin—But to also confess those things that are hidden, that are constantly contributing to the destruction and instability in their life.
Josh Greiner: Yeah, I think that’s a great question because there’s going to be some steps that we as counselors can take. Obviously, at the end of the day, we are dependent on the counselee to do their thing. We can be faithful to teach, we can be faithful to do a lot of things, but it’s going to be dependent on them. But I’d say, first and foremost, is to get back to some of the key elements. And it is remarkable how many times our answers go back to maybe one of the key elements. We’re building a relationship with our counselee and there’s a balance here for sure. You don’t want to spend 30 minutes of each session talking, you know, about fishing and hunting and sports. But, at the same point, you want to build a trusting, involved relationship. Some people are really good at this, they kind of know when to do the pivot, you know, five, six, seven minutes in, and they can keep the conversation moving. And some people, you know, “Hi, welcome to my office. My name is Josh. What is your worth problem that you’re here for today.” If you suspect that you have a counselee wrestling with confession of hidden sin, are you doing a good job building involvement? Of building a trusting relationship? And then, reminding yourself that ultimately like it’s not your job to force the issue. You don’t need to make this come out, but as you are building that relationship, there is often a greater likelihood that they want to tell you the truth.
Number two, I think, this is important in our counseling. So many kinds of people come to us, and not always, but a lot of times there’s a disjoint in their community, right? They are the sheep that has wandered away. As a counselor, we need to help them get back into meaningful community. How do we help them see that they can expose themselves—That they can be true and honest and want to change? And that they can be involved in a loving community of brothers and sisters? In Christ, who cares for the flock, they’re going to say, “Come as you are.” They’re not going to say, “Stay as you are,” but they are going to say, “Come as you are.” So, we can help them build that meaningful community. You might have to do some work there around shame too. And a lot of times that the presenting issue is some sort of shame, they’re so worried about that. I think shame just lies on the spectrum of pride, so people are struggling with pride and therefore we have to help them there.
And then, thirdly, so many times what comes up in counseling is: What are the desires? Why are they wanting to keep this hidden? What is it they believe that they will get if they keep this thing hidden, right? They know that they probably shouldn’t keep it secret. You probably brought them to passages like Psalm 32 and help them see that David was wasting away in those moments. But what is it they want? Are they worried, for example, that they might lose a job? Or that they might lose your or someone else’s respect? They might lose their spouse, or they’ll have conflict with their spouse? There’s something that they’re wanting, right? Getting back to the heart, what is it they long for? What is it they worship? I think we have to figure that out in counseling if they’re struggling with confessing something that’s hidden. And if you’re doing work in the heart, then on one real level, whatever it is that they’re hiding, they’re not going to be able to hide forever. When you’re dealing with heart issues, they’re not going to be able to hide those kinds of things.
And then, lastly, I think, you know, some of us are really natural towards this and some of us aren’t. We have to spend time, in the counseling room or assigning resources, that help people see the value of bringing hidden sin out. So, you might be a naturally good teacher and so you’ll do that in your counseling room. You might not be as a skilled and equipped teacher, and so you’ll assign some resources that other people have done on the values and qualities of good confession—stuff that’s probably impacted you. But you’ll have to eventually lead them and say, “okay, here’s why this is important. This is why you have to do that.”
And then lastly, I just remind us, counselors, if we’re concerned about unconfessed hidden sins that even had people tell me like, “look I’m not telling you the whole truth. I’m just not going to tell you everything that’s going on one level.” On one level, “I appreciate the bluntness. Thank you for telling me you’re not telling me everything.” And those are opportunities for me as a counselor to trust in the Lord and to remind myself the Lord has my value, my worth, as a counselor isn’t dependent on whatever happens in this situation. So, I can love them. I can care for them. I can counsel them. And if they’re choosing to hold things back, I don’t need to force it out. And if they keep things back, that isn’t inherently a sign I’m a bad counselor, or I’m not doing this to please Christ. It could be some other dynamic that’s happening, and I could just step back and trust the Lord and I can be okay with it.
Dale Johnson: Well said, and this is so practical, Josh. And I’m so grateful that we’ve spent some time today talking about this, something you’ll find useful in your counseling room regularly. And this ought to be a primary part in the distinction of biblical counseling, and part of what leads us in the direction of repentance—where we see true legitimate and stability in our walk. Josh, thanks for helping us think through this biblically and practically, and encouraging our counselors in leading and guiding in confessing hidden sin.
Josh Greiner: Dale, it’s been a pleasure to be with you today.
