Dale Johnson: This week on the podcast, I have with me Dr. Jim Newheiser. He’s the director of the Christian counseling program and professor of Christian counseling and pastoral theology at RTS in Charlotte, North Carolina. For 25 years, Dr. Newheiser served as a preaching pastor at Grace Bible Church in Escondido, California. He’s also the Director of The Institute for Biblical Counseling and discipleship, which was formerly CCF West. He has also served as an adjunct professor in biblical counseling at The Master’s University. Furthermore, Dr. Newheiser serves as a board member at both the Biblical Counseling Coalition and the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors. Dr. Newheiser teaches many of the counseling courses, as well as some practical theology courses. He has also been married to his wife, Caroline, since 1979 and they have three adult children. Jim, so good to see you on the podcast today and looking forward to our conversation.
Jim Newheiser: Thank you, Dale.
Dale Johnson: Now, I want to talk today about boundaries. This is a huge topic, and you know I personally have been critical of this concept of boundaries, especially in relation to Henry Cloud’s classic work. But I want to talk today about this concept, and I’m not sure 100% Jim where you might want to go. But I want to talk specifically about how we think about boundaries in the counseling room. Talk about why this concept of boundaries really has become so popular in Christian counseling.
Jim Newheiser: Yeah, I think that like the Cloud and other counseling books have addressed a real problem that people have. The book begins with a lady named Sherry. And you know her husband, her boss, her co-workers, her church—everybody’s taking advantage of her. We can all read that, and she’s overcommitted, she’s overwhelmed, she’s unhappy. We can all look at that and say, “Yeah, that’s not right.” We can sometimes feel like we’re overwhelmed, and people are taking advantage of us. So, it has a great appeal because it’s addressing—like a lot of integrationists and Christian psychology books too—a big problem people face. And from my perspective, it’s useful to be aware of that problem, but the biblical approach is a very different one than Cloud and Townsend take.
Dale Johnson: Yeah, that’s exactly right. I think that’s well said, Jim, where you say they’re identifying what people feel as genuine pressure from the things that are happening in their life. How do we deal with these particular issues? And as we think about it in counseling, there are not only boundaries within the counseling room from counselor to counselee, but also all the myriads of boundaries that the counselee feels like that they need to set. Because, you know, some of the problems that they feel like have brought them into the counseling room have to deal with this issue of maybe not properly setting these types of barriers in some relationships. Where they’re, as you mentioned, taken advantage of and so on. So, let’s talk about this concept of boundaries. There is pressure in people’s lives knowing how to deal with certain relationships and when they feel taken advantage of, and so on. But let’s talk about this concept of boundaries from a biblical perspective, and I guess maybe the most pointed question is: Is this concept of boundaries a biblical notion?
Jim Newheiser: So, the Bible doesn’t really use the term boundaries other than physical boundaries between nations. But the Bible definitely teaches that we have a right when we are threatened or to put limits on relationships. I think really the question is, what do we use as the criteria to set those relationships? The summary of what I’ve come to on this is pretty simple, as we shouldn’t go from pleasing others to pleasing self, and instead we need to please God. I think a lot of times when people talk about, “I need to set boundaries;” it’s very horizontal in terms of, “I’m not going to let people push me around. I’m being taken advantage of.” To some degree, those are real concerns, but the criteria by which you determine whether you meet the expectations or the demands of others, it is sinful to do so, merely to please men. The fear of man brings a snare, and the snare can be over commitment and frustration. But I think as we evaluate expectations, the simple question is 2 Corinthians 5:9: Our aim is whether alive or dead, absent or present; our aim is to be pleasing to Him. So you’re processing it in terms of: how in this situation can I best please the Lord? As opposed to what’s good for me.
Dale Johnson: Yeah, I think that’s very helpful. And a lot of times the way that those questions are framed, again we repeat this refrain quite often, as we think about secular ideas or non-Christian ideas is the way that they’re defining the problem that they’re resonating with people, but the way you define the problem often leads in the direction of where we look for the solution in and the way you just described that I think is very helpful to say that you know, we’re often asking the wrong question when we’re wanting to create some sort of barrier or boundary, which then you know you’re replacing one sinful relationship with people outside, to now focusing on maybe being self-protective and that’s actually not the question that the Bible is asking in those relationships to begin with. I love the way that you reframe that, and I think that’s really helpful. You know, one question that some people may be curious about is, are there any positive things from a book like Cloud and Townsend on this issue of boundaries, a classic work, any positive things that we can glean from these types of authors.
Jim Newheiser: Like a lot of integrationist people who relied on psychology, their description of the problem is accurate and helpful, and their book is very easy to read; it’s all very relatable. I like when they talk about limiting young people’s access to social media, for example. And the dangers of that, which is in the more revised version. So I think they’re using a lot of Scripture. Sometimes I’m disappointed with how they use the Scripture, but they’re believers who are trying to help people. And again, the idea of setting limits is valid. In the Bible, we’re free to escape from people who are trying to do us harm. Jesus did that in John 10 and Paul in Acts. We’re free to avoid people who are a bad influence. Proverbs 13:20 says that “he who walks with the wise will be wise, the companion of fools suffers harm.” We’re wise to evaluate our options, and sometimes there are multiple valid options, and we have to choose what is best according to our understanding of God’s call on our life. I have to do that with my counseling. I have a lot of people who want to be counseled, and I can’t please everybody. I have to decide, in light of the calling God has given me, to whom I have to say no, and it’s very hard for me to say no.
Dale Johnson: And I think that’s something a lot of us struggle with. Especially, you know, speaking to the counselors who are out there listening, that is something that’s difficult. We’re not called to be the person who saves everyone, right? We have to set limits in those types of directions, so some helpful thoughts, but also some misguided approaches in that book, as you mentioned in the previous question as well. So let’s get to this in talking about thinking about setting limits within relationships from a biblical perspective, and I think this would be helpful to really begin to frame how the Scripture understands this problem that’s being identified and then how we seek solutions that are God-honoring first and then healthy in terms of relationship. So, Jim talk a little bit about the biblical basis for how we set these limits within some of our relationships.
Jim Newheiser: Well, I mean, in the Bible, the first command is to love God. The second is to love others. And so, I make my choices based upon how best I can achieve those most important priorities in life. I also have to recognize I have a particular calling—like, I’m employed by Reformed Theological Seminary to prepare future servants of the Lord in ministry. Therefore, if I’m not meeting those expectations because other people are pulling me away, that means I’m gonna have to say no to people sometimes. It does come up a lot in counseling. I could give you many different situations where you have someone, which actually comes up with pastors or counselors, where they are almost ruled by all the demands of the people to whom they’re trying to minister, and then they neglect their families. My wife and I do a great deal of counseling with pastors and wives. And the wife is often embittered because she believes the family has been marginalized because they can be out on a date, then somebody texts and says, “Oh no, there’s a crisis in the women’s committee,” and the guy gets up and leaves his wife in the restaurant. And so, having to process just in light of: how God has called me in light of the Word of God? How do I respond to these demands? Another example would be many of us have relatives now who are in homosexual relationships or want to use pronouns we don’t agree with. We are under immense social pressure from family in pleasing people. Even other relatives may not agree with it or still capitulating to it. And you know for me, I can’t go to a homosexual wedding because witnesses to the wedding are participants. They’re not just an audience and so I’m going to have to set limits that will upset people. But it really helps to realize I’m setting this limit in light of my understanding of Scripture—in how I can best please God.
Dale Johnson: Jim, it’s really helpful as we think about the biblical basis of how to approach relationships, and how we can see the primary responsibility that we have to other people, as we love God and learn to love other people. But then learning how to set appropriate categories, where we can’t be everything to every single person. We’re not the Savior. We can’t accomplish that. And so, I think sometimes people want to use things like boundaries as sort of the primary lens that they see their life through. Talk about that idea of should this be a primary lens, these boundaries? People read that book, and they think, “Oh man, this explains my life, and it explains all the problems that I have.” And so they start to look at their whole life through this lens. Describe why that might be something of a danger.
Jim Newheiser: This is actually pretty common with how psychology comes into Christianity. Years ago, self-esteem was the answer to everything. A love language has been another popular paradigm, and now—boundaries. There is truth to the fact that we need to set limits on relationships, but the illustration itself, as Ed Welch says, it’s not the all-defining paradigm for all of life, it’s partial. Then the way that they approach setting these limits, in my view, its very horizontally and man-centered. As opposed to, okay, yes, it’s biblical that I set limits, but the Bible has infallible and sufficient information to help me set those limits, according to how I can honor God and fulfill my calling. Back to my initial statement, I think people who recognize they’re people pleasers, they’re suffering the consequences of people pleasing. They react and say, “Well now, I’m going to look out for myself.” That’s an unwise response to a real problem. The Bible tells me that I have valid reasons for setting limits on relationships according to how I can: best serve God, appropriately love others, and the calling I have, which is going to be unique to me. Not everybody will have the same, identical calling.
Dale Johnson: Yeah, I think that’s helpful. I think about this maybe in terms of priorities and responsibilities that the Lord has given me. I mean, I’m called to give preference and deference to my family, for example, over/against other problems that may exist out there. So yeah, there are reasonable biblical ways to view this, and I talk about that maybe often in priority. Maybe one final question just to think through this in a very practical way in the counseling room: What might be one way, Jim—In the counseling room or one particular issue—where you might encourage a counselee to think about the situation that they’re in based on priorities that we see in the Scripture? Where they might limit involvement with an individual or limit some involvement in a particular relationship where it is a biblical approach to say, “You know what—in order to honor the Lord, it might be wise to limit here.” Can you give an example of what something like that might look like in a counseling situation?
Jim Newheiser: Yeah, that’s a great question, Dale. I think it comes up a lot in counseling and family situations. Where counseling a woman who’s in her forties who was abused in her home by her brothers and her parents did not protect her. I think she has the right to set some limits on that relationship, and she has the duty to keep her children safe from potential harm from those who aren’t repentant. The other situation is where there may be in-laws making excessive demands on the time or even the finances of a young couple. And you have to determine, “Okay, we have left; we’re joined together, and we can’t let them run our lives.” And even financially, we had situations where you’ve got to cosign or something, and there are biblical reasons why you may want to say no, even though you may be under immense family pressure to give in.
Dale Johnson: Jim, that’s really helpful. I’m really grateful for you helping us to think through these ideas, giving appropriate critique, but also centering us back on answering the questions according to Scripture. So, brother, thank you for that. It is very useful as we think about maybe even some counseling cases that we’re dealing with currently. So, thanks for guiding us in that.
Jim Newheiser: My pleasure.
